Awesome dig. But, it makes me wonder. Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all? In which way are you not Sisyphus?
How far have you pushed the boulder? I’ve pushed it sooo far that it’s publicly saying it’s a little annoyed about the genocide it’s perpetrating. That’s progress.
The increased aid isn’t nothing. It’s not enough, but it’s something we might not have without people pushing that boulder. It’s also just one issue. Overall Biden’s administration has been much further left than his history predicted.
You stabbed me once, but the other guy would stab me twice? Wow I gotta vote for the lesser evil. That nothing aid is NOT saving lives as it’s coupled with complete support for Israeli settler-colonialism. It’s not a genuine gesture to help Palestinians, it’s a cynical PR campaign. The way to help Palestinians is to get the US OUT of Palestine.
I wonder if there is a report on how much aid actually makes it to Palestinians. I have seen Israeli settlers blocking trucks, seizing supplies, protected by the IDF.
Are we talking about literally dropping aid onto Palestinians and killing them while also funding an army that’s committing a genocide against Palestinians? That’s not what I call saving lives.
How would you deliver aid in a way that was guaranteed not to kill anyone? Trucks? Nope, those kill people every day. Push carts? Nope, too slow and people would die of exhaustion. Boats? That takes a dock and we’re building one. (And people can die that way too.)
I personally don’t think Biden has the ability to force Israel to do anything unless he does it through military force, which I don’t support. Russia or China would quickly fill the vacuum if the US just pulled out. Ramping up pressure over time maximizes the US’s influence over Israel. I think Biden should have ramped it up a lot faster, but it is the most effective strategy.
Here it is, we found it, the molten core of self-delusional liberal fascism
You boneless, bloodless fucks are like those cannibal ghouls in warhammer who live in an Arthurian hallucination and are fully convinced they’re noble questing knights
Yeah the 3.8billion to Israel are sure to help Palestinians. Get over yourself, just admit you’re fine with genocide. “Oh this other guy wants to do it even more” isn’t a real argument, I’m not voting for the other guy ever, I’m telling the first guy that I might, if he doesn’t do genocide.
There are huge pro-Palestine protests going on in the states, (and elsewhere) have been since October 7th. He still refuses to budge a fucking inch, funding & arming the genocide whilst USian citizens get in shit for supporting Palestine.
I didn’t ask “which boulder”. To put it plainly, my question was what different strategy from pushing Biden left has achieved something more, or whether they just prefer to be a bystander and jeer from the sidelines.
Biden is far from perfect, but he has indeed been pushed to the left on many issues. Based on his record it would be fair to predict that he would be right of Obama of Clinton, and he has generally been further left. (Not a high bar to clear.)
Are you a complete asshole? He is literally funding and arming a fucking genocide. Where the fuck do you draw the line if not at genocide?
He has not been pushed left on anything. He canned his student debt relief plans, he’s currently in the middle of lettings tons of anti-trans bills pass while pushing a bill that includes a ban on pride flags at embassies and such. He is not dramatically different from any Republican, he still puts kids in cages at the border.
You remind me why I hate liberals so passionately.
He’s NOT perfect okay, nobody is. Sure there’s the genocide and the concentration camps and the border wall and the strike breaking and you know what? Look, we all make mistakes, that’s what makes us human. Like Jesus said, let anyone who is without sin throw the first stone.
You think Palestinians would be better off with Trump?
Oh my god shut the fuck up. Biden is literally arming a genocide against the Palestinians right fucking now. You don’t get to pull this “well the other guy would be worse” line when your guy is committing actual war crimes with zero remorse. “Well you see under Trump Israel would slaughter 300 civilians every day compared to the 250 civilians per day being slaughtered under Biden” fuck you.
What line are we drawing? Maybe “don’t do a fucking genocide” is a good place to start. Sounds like you support the genocide though. How does that feel to know that you are supporting the senseless slaughter of an entire people? Does that feel like you’re doing the right thing? Bet you won’t answer though
You are a liberal. Oh, sorry you’re a Bernie-supporting leftist who wants the US to be like Sweden without understanding at all why they aren’t or why Sweden is.
I don’t even understand that last sentence. Bernie was the best choice in that race. It’s not like Warren was going to usher in a Communist Eutopia.
Here’s what you don’t get. If you want power you need public support. You can’t bypass public opinion and fix the system. That’s what Republicans tried to do with Abortion. They went after the power by any means necessary, driving public opinion away from them in the process. They got what they wanted and have been fucked in every election since.
I doubt that your approach will ever achieve anything but, if you do, you wont be able to sustain it. That’s exactly why radical communist revolutions have such an abysmal track record.
You think Palestinians would be better off with Trump?
Are you trying to argue that it would be easier to make trump stop funding a genocide? The reason people on the left say that they will not vote for Biden due to genocide is because they hope he might stop.
I’m not pushing on that boulder no. I’m doing lots of actual effective organizing and effort elsewhere though. Stuff that makes real differences to real people. So you keep wasting your effort on voting for genocide and I’ll keep cleaning up the mess you make. Hopefully someday you stop wasting your time supporting genocide and instead start spending it doing something that matters
Genocide isn’t on the ballot? Wow, maybe we should violently overthrow whatever “democracy” doesn’t let you vote against genocide. The popular vote amounts to those fake steering wheels in cars for toddlers anyways.
So that’s your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it’s not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end.
The left (including myself) couldn’t gather enough support to nominate Bernie, but you think you can put together a cohesive army to overthrow the US by force? And who’s to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.
So that’s your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it’s not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end
It’s not impossible, and with the US aid coming to an end there would also be the end to support of the Israeli settler regime, support which vastly overpowers this aid.
The left (including myself) couldn’t gather enough support to nominate Bernie
LMAO.
And who’s to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.
No material analysis. The reason you think the left doesn’t have support in the US is due to opportunism and the dual interests of labor in the imperial core. So, if the dust settles and US interference abroad had crumbled, it would certainly be the left in control. Read Lenin’s Imperialism.
Without foreign assistance, Israel can’t exist. With America out of the picture, it would just be Russia or China. Either one would like to grow their influence in the region,band Israel has plenty of technology expertise to offer.
Yes, it’s impossible. Out of every ten people you recruit for your little revolution, at least one will be a fed. You’ll be done before you even start.
The left does have support in the US. A violent leftist revolution doesn’t. Right wing militias would be the least of your concerns. The wealthy of the US have their own private armies and intelligence agencies, not to mention the money to buy foreign support and arms. The dollar wouldn’t become worthless until you won.
How did Lenin’s revolution end up? The Russia he built is even more of an oligarchy than the US.
You can’t even say the genocide is inevitable but at least you’ll get an increased minimum wage with Biden. He’s actively creating the false scarcity where reactionaries thrive. He’s their partner in this disaster. It doesn’t really matter if you vote for him or not because it all leads to genocide, but I’m telling you I’m not voting for him.
Where did you get the idea that I’m a fan of Biden? I’m a realist. If your vote helps swing the election to Trump, the genocide will get worse, but your smugness would be intact.
So did you miss the US putting forward a weak ceasefire resolution at the UN Security Council? Yeah, it wasn’t good enough (and that’s why it failed) but that’s a huge leap from where we were before when the US was absolutely opposed to a ceasefire. That sure as hell looks like a result of electoral pressure. The uncommitted campaign did that, and if it weren’t for fucking coward Blue No Matter Who’s like you we’d actually be able to push Biden on the issue.
I supported the uncommitted campaign. Biden is still better for Palestine than Trump, and you still have no viable path to a third option. The politics of outrage just drives people away.
You’re just defining a tiny in-group, then putting everyone else in an out-group. There is no room for building alliances or cooperation because everyone else is just the enemy. It wouldn’t even matter if we had rank choice voting, you would still be irrelevant.
You blinkered libs repeat this ad infinitum because (assuming you actually believe it) you’ve made the farce of red vs blue American political theatre your whole world. I don’t view the world like that, users here in general don’t, and most people aren’t American voters.
But it also doesn’t even stand up to scrutiny on its own merits if you assume everyone is an American electoral obsessed lib like yourself:
The Biden admin is committing genocide, factually and materially right now. The fact that another admin in all likelihood would is still less certain than the unshakable material reality of actual current events.
Given the evidence of the previous Trump presidency, there’s every reason to believe that a Trump admin would be less competent and less functional, which could prove better for Palestine and America’s victims.
Trump would actually receive opposition both politically and in terms of laundered public opinion from liberals like yourself, thr Democrats, and potentially the few diehard never-Trump Republicans. That would also be an improvement over an admin that skates by without real opposition and that you’re insisting even those opposed to it have to offer support to.
Trump has historically been unpredictable on foreign policy and diplomacy with foreign leaders. He’s more prone to shifting his position on the basis of grudges, flattery, social connections, hell, even being bought off potentially. When the certainty is continued, unlimited genocide, any uncertainly is an opportunity for improvement.
The whole fucking point of the uncommitted campaign is to leverage our support to force Biden to capitulate to our demands.
You aren’t willing to do that. You are committed to Biden and thus undermining the uncommitted campaign, because you’re telling Biden that he can do anything he wants and you will support him. You and every Blue No Matter Who like you are responsible for Biden not being responsive to demands from his electoral base until recently. They really thought they couldn’t lose enough votes to matter and we can pressure him by making it clear that he is going to lose if he supports genocide. Already he has been moved on this issue and we can move him farther. He should know I’ll vote for him if there’s a permanent ceasefire, UNRWA funding, and an end to military support for Israel.
That’s the viable third option - we force him to capitulate and end the genocide. We can do it. Why are you undermining us?
Biden and the rest of the establishment have no idea how many of those uncommitted votes will or won’t vote for Biden in the general, and nothing I say has any effect on that.
Here is the comment I originally responded to:
Also, it’s great because the same people who said we could push him left are now mad because… we are trying to push him left
The only thing I’m saying is that Biden actually has been pushed left, and many of us who think Biden is preferable to Trump are absolutely in favor of continuing to push him left.
This is one of those Internet bubbles you keep hearing about. You folks have your little in-group, and everyone who doesn’t line up exactly with the group is an outsider. That’s exactly how you convince politicians that you aren’t worth paying attention to. My state hasn’t voted yet. Maybe I’ll vote “uncommitted” like I planned, or maybe I get so fed up with this edgy nonsense that I vote Biden. That’s not likely in my case, but this shit does drive people away. You are more concerned with maintaining your edgy rebel status than actually moving public opinion. I think winning on policy would be a disaster in your eyes because you would no longer be special.
What did I say that was 100% liberal? There haven’t even been any policy disagreements! This whole discussion has been about political strategy, not policy, and not economic philosophy.
It’s in-group out-group dynamics. You think your insular bubble gets to own leftism, and everyone outside it is liberal at best.
Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all?
You’ve admitted yourself that the uncommitted campaign is the only thing that has actually served to push him to the left, so yes? They have. Your plan to be committed while lying about being uncommitted can only serve to undermine our effort in the long run, so fuck off, liberal scum
Lmao have your strategies worked? “We can push them left” has been the motto for several decades now, and were are we? The Dems won’t even fight for abortion rights anymore. This was unthinkable 8 years ago. The platonic ideal of a compromise the left has been sold has time and again been proven to do nothing but cede ground to the right.
The reason Dems masturbate to the word “bi-partisan” while screaming like demons at any who dare suggest they should maybe worn with their left wing base, is because the Dems know they don’t have to appease that base as long as troglodytes like you keep regurgitating the same tired mottos instead of giving a shit.
Whatever is available? The uncommitted votes seem to have moved his rhetoric (which does help change opinions) and contributed to increasing aid to Gaza. He’s not where I want him to be, but it is something.
I totally understand complaints that he hasn’t moved enough, but if that’s not connected to some kind of effort to do better than it’s kind of pointless. People who have achieved nothing shouldn’t be mocking those who have achieved something.
I’m not sure the people who got those meals agree with you.
50+ years of American foreign policy is aiding and abetting this genocide. The position Biden is in at this moment gives him limited leverage. The second he drops aid to Israel, that leverage is gone. Threats are dangerous if following through makes you powerless.
A series of small punishments maximizes leverage in situations like this. Kill one hostage at a time, and you are taken seriously. Kill all the hostages and you get taken out. Israel has other places to go for aid and alliances. America needs a foothold in the Middle East, and Israel works far better than Saudi Arabia which has its own genocide going on.
I think Biden should be moving faster, but he has the right strategy. Turn up the heat a bit at a time to maximize leverage instead of pulling all support “on principle” and burning all the leverage for nothing. I care more about outcome than purity.
Biden has all the leverage. The Israeli state cannot function as it does without massive support - financial, political, military - from the USA. Hell, they can’t even carry out this genocide to this extent without US (and it’s allies) help. They’re relying on the US and UK for targeting info and having support and surveillance flights (at the very least) run out of RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus. They’re used British and American mercenaries and volunteers, signing deals with fucking Blackwater (now renamed) for land grabs in Gaza.
You seem to have created and swallow this bizarre rubric about imaginary ‘gaining political leverage’ that does not reflect any actual relationship to material reality.
How has the US turned the heat up? By doubling down on blocking and vetoing international efforts to get Israel to accept international law? By starting a military conflict in the Red Sea to break a blockade of Israel? By granting and proposing more new massive spending bills that will send weapons and support to Israel? By pressuring it’s allies and puppet states to defund the only real UN organisation on the ground that not only provides aid, but could actually observe and report the scale of the deaths and atrocities taking place? By giving it’s media apparatus carte blanche to triple down on spewing disinformation, already debunked atrocity propaganda, and genocide justification? By proposing and supporting massive crackdowns on free speech and protest from the streets to college campuses?
And what are the achievements for Palestine the Biden admin and US allies have supposedly won? Fuck all.
If there’s even an ounce of sincerity in you and your argument, then put aside all the vague, unquantifiable political media talk about leverage or political capital or diplomatic strategy and look at the simple facts. What has happened. What has been done. What hasn’t been done. Not press statements, not political speeches. Material reality.
And if you can’t do that, then it’s time to admit to yourself that all this spurious logic about imagined restrictions or political game playing is just veil you’ve thrown over the fact that you simply do not care enough to oppose or perhaps even support the horrors of this genocide. That you’re telling yourself you’re not party to it as you watch more and more people die, perhaps hoping that Israel can just hurry up and finish the job so you can throw up your hands and say, ‘we tried but it was too little too late’. You can cling to that veil to try and tell yourself you’re one of the good, moral people if you want. But people here are telling you, it’s so fucking sheer that everyone else can and will see right through it to what you are.
What does the Biden admin ‘changing their rhetoric’ while still doing the exact same material things do, except help launder and disguise the continued participation in genocide?
Aiding and abetting genocide is just a “complaint” to you?
Honestly my guy if that’s where your at, why not just be a Trump supporter, it’s clear you have no principles or sense of morality so what’s holding you back from going all the way, is it the decorum?
I totally understand complaints that he hasn’t moved enough
You literally called people’s opposition to Biden’s support for genocide “complaints”, are you high on something? You can barely conceal your racism you dumb fuck lmao
On the one hand you admit “The uncommitted votes seem to have moved his rhetoric … it is something.”
But then you go on to contradict that by implying we’ve “achieved nothing”. You seem like you’re not a serious person at all. Or at the very least not intellectually honest.
I see you support the uncommitted movement and thats good in my book. However, do you think the left should vote uncommitted in the primary but still vote for Biden in November?
Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. American support for Israeli atrocities has been bipartisan foreign policy for decades. Both Biden and Trump are rabid on this issue. The only difference is that democrats will pretend it’s the Likud party or honestly just Netanyahu’s fault and not the actual inherent nature of a settler colonial regime. Republicans don’t bother with such formalities. They are more honest about their bloodthirst. (I wonder why? Could it be that looking at Israel is like looking in the mirror for Amerikkkans?)
How? How can things possibly get worse? What do you even think Trump could do to make things worse for people who are already being starved to death while being bombed?
I said we can push him left. Please keep pushing.
Okay Sisyphus
Awesome dig. But, it makes me wonder. Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all? In which way are you not Sisyphus?
How far have you pushed the boulder? I’ve pushed it sooo far that it’s publicly saying it’s a little annoyed about the genocide it’s perpetrating. That’s progress.
The increased aid isn’t nothing. It’s not enough, but it’s something we might not have without people pushing that boulder. It’s also just one issue. Overall Biden’s administration has been much further left than his history predicted.
Soooo much further left. How’s that border wall coming?
Wrt US aid, it literally is nothing, it’s PR nonsense. You CANNOT be left wing and propping up/funding a genocide.
That nothing aid is saving lives. You clearly care more about being smug than helping Palestinians. If it were Trump I guarantee it would be worse.
You stabbed me once, but the other guy would stab me twice? Wow I gotta vote for the lesser evil. That nothing aid is NOT saving lives as it’s coupled with complete support for Israeli settler-colonialism. It’s not a genuine gesture to help Palestinians, it’s a cynical PR campaign. The way to help Palestinians is to get the US OUT of Palestine.
I wonder if there is a report on how much aid actually makes it to Palestinians. I have seen Israeli settlers blocking trucks, seizing supplies, protected by the IDF.
Are we talking about literally dropping aid onto Palestinians and killing them while also funding an army that’s committing a genocide against Palestinians? That’s not what I call saving lives.
I guess I’m just a smug asshole?
Yes
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-airdropped-aid-deaths-intl/index.html
The airdropped aid literally killed people, because the US refuses to stand up to Israel and tell them to let aid in other ways.
How would you deliver aid in a way that was guaranteed not to kill anyone? Trucks? Nope, those kill people every day. Push carts? Nope, too slow and people would die of exhaustion. Boats? That takes a dock and we’re building one. (And people can die that way too.)
I personally don’t think Biden has the ability to force Israel to do anything unless he does it through military force, which I don’t support. Russia or China would quickly fill the vacuum if the US just pulled out. Ramping up pressure over time maximizes the US’s influence over Israel. I think Biden should have ramped it up a lot faster, but it is the most effective strategy.
You know what would save Palestinian lives? Making Israel stop their genocide, something Biden absolutely has the power to do. Why isn’t he doing it?
Here it is, we found it, the molten core of self-delusional liberal fascism
You boneless, bloodless fucks are like those cannibal ghouls in warhammer who live in an Arthurian hallucination and are fully convinced they’re noble questing knights
Flour Massacre.
Yeah the 3.8billion to Israel are sure to help Palestinians. Get over yourself, just admit you’re fine with genocide. “Oh this other guy wants to do it even more” isn’t a real argument, I’m not voting for the other guy ever, I’m telling the first guy that I might, if he doesn’t do genocide.
We’re feeding the people who are being shot by the people we are arming.
Progress!
Well it’s only fair, death row inmates get a last meal after all.
ooff… I was not prepared for the darkness…
Dark humor is the only way for me to maintain sanity in the face of all this, I do apologize though that might be a bit too dark hah
There are huge pro-Palestine protests going on in the states, (and elsewhere) have been since October 7th. He still refuses to budge a fucking inch, funding & arming the genocide whilst USian citizens get in shit for supporting Palestine.
That boulder?
I didn’t ask “which boulder”. To put it plainly, my question was what different strategy from pushing Biden left has achieved something more, or whether they just prefer to be a bystander and jeer from the sidelines.
Biden is far from perfect, but he has indeed been pushed to the left on many issues. Based on his record it would be fair to predict that he would be right of Obama of Clinton, and he has generally been further left. (Not a high bar to clear.)
Are you a complete asshole? He is literally funding and arming a fucking genocide. Where the fuck do you draw the line if not at genocide?
He has not been pushed left on anything. He canned his student debt relief plans, he’s currently in the middle of lettings tons of anti-trans bills pass while pushing a bill that includes a ban on pride flags at embassies and such. He is not dramatically different from any Republican, he still puts kids in cages at the border.
You remind me why I hate liberals so passionately.
He’s NOT perfect okay, nobody is. Sure there’s the genocide and the concentration camps and the border wall and the strike breaking and you know what? Look, we all make mistakes, that’s what makes us human. Like Jesus said, let anyone who is without sin throw the first stone.
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I mean… I know he’s murdering babies… but like… its not OUR babies.
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Oh my god shut the fuck up. Biden is literally arming a genocide against the Palestinians right fucking now. You don’t get to pull this “well the other guy would be worse” line when your guy is committing actual war crimes with zero remorse. “Well you see under Trump Israel would slaughter 300 civilians every day compared to the 250 civilians per day being slaughtered under Biden” fuck you.
What line are we drawing? Maybe “don’t do a fucking genocide” is a good place to start. Sounds like you support the genocide though. How does that feel to know that you are supporting the senseless slaughter of an entire people? Does that feel like you’re doing the right thing? Bet you won’t answer though
Stop supporting genocide you piece of shit
You are a liberal. Oh, sorry you’re a Bernie-supporting leftist who wants the US to be like Sweden without understanding at all why they aren’t or why Sweden is.
I don’t even understand that last sentence. Bernie was the best choice in that race. It’s not like Warren was going to usher in a Communist Eutopia.
Here’s what you don’t get. If you want power you need public support. You can’t bypass public opinion and fix the system. That’s what Republicans tried to do with Abortion. They went after the power by any means necessary, driving public opinion away from them in the process. They got what they wanted and have been fucked in every election since.
I doubt that your approach will ever achieve anything but, if you do, you wont be able to sustain it. That’s exactly why radical communist revolutions have such an abysmal track record.
Are you trying to argue that it would be easier to make trump stop funding a genocide? The reason people on the left say that they will not vote for Biden due to genocide is because they hope he might stop.
eat shit and die liberal scum
Death to America
I’m not pushing on that boulder no. I’m doing lots of actual effective organizing and effort elsewhere though. Stuff that makes real differences to real people. So you keep wasting your effort on voting for genocide and I’ll keep cleaning up the mess you make. Hopefully someday you stop wasting your time supporting genocide and instead start spending it doing something that matters
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Genocide isn’t on the ballot? Wow, maybe we should violently overthrow whatever “democracy” doesn’t let you vote against genocide. The popular vote amounts to those fake steering wheels in cars for toddlers anyways.
So that’s your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it’s not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end.
The left (including myself) couldn’t gather enough support to nominate Bernie, but you think you can put together a cohesive army to overthrow the US by force? And who’s to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.
It’s not impossible, and with the US aid coming to an end there would also be the end to support of the Israeli settler regime, support which vastly overpowers this aid.
LMAO.
No material analysis. The reason you think the left doesn’t have support in the US is due to opportunism and the dual interests of labor in the imperial core. So, if the dust settles and US interference abroad had crumbled, it would certainly be the left in control. Read Lenin’s Imperialism.
Without foreign assistance, Israel can’t exist. With America out of the picture, it would just be Russia or China. Either one would like to grow their influence in the region,band Israel has plenty of technology expertise to offer.
Yes, it’s impossible. Out of every ten people you recruit for your little revolution, at least one will be a fed. You’ll be done before you even start.
The left does have support in the US. A violent leftist revolution doesn’t. Right wing militias would be the least of your concerns. The wealthy of the US have their own private armies and intelligence agencies, not to mention the money to buy foreign support and arms. The dollar wouldn’t become worthless until you won.
How did Lenin’s revolution end up? The Russia he built is even more of an oligarchy than the US.
You can’t even say the genocide is inevitable but at least you’ll get an increased minimum wage with Biden. He’s actively creating the false scarcity where reactionaries thrive. He’s their partner in this disaster. It doesn’t really matter if you vote for him or not because it all leads to genocide, but I’m telling you I’m not voting for him.
Where did you get the idea that I’m a fan of Biden? I’m a realist. If your vote helps swing the election to Trump, the genocide will get worse, but your smugness would be intact.
So did you miss the US putting forward a weak ceasefire resolution at the UN Security Council? Yeah, it wasn’t good enough (and that’s why it failed) but that’s a huge leap from where we were before when the US was absolutely opposed to a ceasefire. That sure as hell looks like a result of electoral pressure. The uncommitted campaign did that, and if it weren’t for fucking coward Blue No Matter Who’s like you we’d actually be able to push Biden on the issue.
If we fail it’s your fault.
I supported the uncommitted campaign. Biden is still better for Palestine than Trump, and you still have no viable path to a third option. The politics of outrage just drives people away.
You’re just defining a tiny in-group, then putting everyone else in an out-group. There is no room for building alliances or cooperation because everyone else is just the enemy. It wouldn’t even matter if we had rank choice voting, you would still be irrelevant.
You blinkered libs repeat this ad infinitum because (assuming you actually believe it) you’ve made the farce of red vs blue American political theatre your whole world. I don’t view the world like that, users here in general don’t, and most people aren’t American voters.
But it also doesn’t even stand up to scrutiny on its own merits if you assume everyone is an American electoral obsessed lib like yourself:
The Biden admin is committing genocide, factually and materially right now. The fact that another admin in all likelihood would is still less certain than the unshakable material reality of actual current events.
Given the evidence of the previous Trump presidency, there’s every reason to believe that a Trump admin would be less competent and less functional, which could prove better for Palestine and America’s victims.
Trump would actually receive opposition both politically and in terms of laundered public opinion from liberals like yourself, thr Democrats, and potentially the few diehard never-Trump Republicans. That would also be an improvement over an admin that skates by without real opposition and that you’re insisting even those opposed to it have to offer support to.
Trump has historically been unpredictable on foreign policy and diplomacy with foreign leaders. He’s more prone to shifting his position on the basis of grudges, flattery, social connections, hell, even being bought off potentially. When the certainty is continued, unlimited genocide, any uncertainly is an opportunity for improvement.
@Tinidril@midwest.social
You never replied to this. Would you like to now that Trump has called (for his own selfish reasons of course) for Israel to ‘end their war in Gaza?’
The whole fucking point of the uncommitted campaign is to leverage our support to force Biden to capitulate to our demands.
You aren’t willing to do that. You are committed to Biden and thus undermining the uncommitted campaign, because you’re telling Biden that he can do anything he wants and you will support him. You and every Blue No Matter Who like you are responsible for Biden not being responsive to demands from his electoral base until recently. They really thought they couldn’t lose enough votes to matter and we can pressure him by making it clear that he is going to lose if he supports genocide. Already he has been moved on this issue and we can move him farther. He should know I’ll vote for him if there’s a permanent ceasefire, UNRWA funding, and an end to military support for Israel.
That’s the viable third option - we force him to capitulate and end the genocide. We can do it. Why are you undermining us?
Biden and the rest of the establishment have no idea how many of those uncommitted votes will or won’t vote for Biden in the general, and nothing I say has any effect on that.
Here is the comment I originally responded to:
The only thing I’m saying is that Biden actually has been pushed left, and many of us who think Biden is preferable to Trump are absolutely in favor of continuing to push him left.
This is one of those Internet bubbles you keep hearing about. You folks have your little in-group, and everyone who doesn’t line up exactly with the group is an outsider. That’s exactly how you convince politicians that you aren’t worth paying attention to. My state hasn’t voted yet. Maybe I’ll vote “uncommitted” like I planned, or maybe I get so fed up with this edgy nonsense that I vote Biden. That’s not likely in my case, but this shit does drive people away. You are more concerned with maintaining your edgy rebel status than actually moving public opinion. I think winning on policy would be a disaster in your eyes because you would no longer be special.
Then why do you sound 100% like a liberal? I don’t get it.
What did I say that was 100% liberal? There haven’t even been any policy disagreements! This whole discussion has been about political strategy, not policy, and not economic philosophy.
It’s in-group out-group dynamics. You think your insular bubble gets to own leftism, and everyone outside it is liberal at best.
Voting uncommitted.
You’ve admitted yourself that the uncommitted campaign is the only thing that has actually served to push him to the left, so yes? They have. Your plan to be committed while lying about being uncommitted can only serve to undermine our effort in the long run, so fuck off, liberal scum
Lmao have your strategies worked? “We can push them left” has been the motto for several decades now, and were are we? The Dems won’t even fight for abortion rights anymore. This was unthinkable 8 years ago. The platonic ideal of a compromise the left has been sold has time and again been proven to do nothing but cede ground to the right.
The reason Dems masturbate to the word “bi-partisan” while screaming like demons at any who dare suggest they should maybe worn with their left wing base, is because the Dems know they don’t have to appease that base as long as troglodytes like you keep regurgitating the same tired mottos instead of giving a shit.
Well I voted for Hilary so no that strategy didn’t work.
Now I didn’t vote and just make fun of liberals online. Learned my lesson.
He got pushed so far left that he ended up being in the far right. Horseshoe theory do be like that though
With what leverage?
Whatever is available? The uncommitted votes seem to have moved his rhetoric (which does help change opinions) and contributed to increasing aid to Gaza. He’s not where I want him to be, but it is something.
I totally understand complaints that he hasn’t moved enough, but if that’s not connected to some kind of effort to do better than it’s kind of pointless. People who have achieved nothing shouldn’t be mocking those who have achieved something.
While still abetting a genocide
Sending aid to Gaza is fine in a vacuum, but it’s fucking meaningless when he’s the one assisting in the genocide
I’m not sure the people who got those meals agree with you.
50+ years of American foreign policy is aiding and abetting this genocide. The position Biden is in at this moment gives him limited leverage. The second he drops aid to Israel, that leverage is gone. Threats are dangerous if following through makes you powerless.
A series of small punishments maximizes leverage in situations like this. Kill one hostage at a time, and you are taken seriously. Kill all the hostages and you get taken out. Israel has other places to go for aid and alliances. America needs a foothold in the Middle East, and Israel works far better than Saudi Arabia which has its own genocide going on.
I think Biden should be moving faster, but he has the right strategy. Turn up the heat a bit at a time to maximize leverage instead of pulling all support “on principle” and burning all the leverage for nothing. I care more about outcome than purity.
Biden has all the leverage. The Israeli state cannot function as it does without massive support - financial, political, military - from the USA. Hell, they can’t even carry out this genocide to this extent without US (and it’s allies) help. They’re relying on the US and UK for targeting info and having support and surveillance flights (at the very least) run out of RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus. They’re used British and American mercenaries and volunteers, signing deals with fucking Blackwater (now renamed) for land grabs in Gaza.
You seem to have created and swallow this bizarre rubric about imaginary ‘gaining political leverage’ that does not reflect any actual relationship to material reality.
How has the US turned the heat up? By doubling down on blocking and vetoing international efforts to get Israel to accept international law? By starting a military conflict in the Red Sea to break a blockade of Israel? By granting and proposing more new massive spending bills that will send weapons and support to Israel? By pressuring it’s allies and puppet states to defund the only real UN organisation on the ground that not only provides aid, but could actually observe and report the scale of the deaths and atrocities taking place? By giving it’s media apparatus carte blanche to triple down on spewing disinformation, already debunked atrocity propaganda, and genocide justification? By proposing and supporting massive crackdowns on free speech and protest from the streets to college campuses?
And what are the achievements for Palestine the Biden admin and US allies have supposedly won? Fuck all.
If there’s even an ounce of sincerity in you and your argument, then put aside all the vague, unquantifiable political media talk about leverage or political capital or diplomatic strategy and look at the simple facts. What has happened. What has been done. What hasn’t been done. Not press statements, not political speeches. Material reality.
And if you can’t do that, then it’s time to admit to yourself that all this spurious logic about imagined restrictions or political game playing is just veil you’ve thrown over the fact that you simply do not care enough to oppose or perhaps even support the horrors of this genocide. That you’re telling yourself you’re not party to it as you watch more and more people die, perhaps hoping that Israel can just hurry up and finish the job so you can throw up your hands and say, ‘we tried but it was too little too late’. You can cling to that veil to try and tell yourself you’re one of the good, moral people if you want. But people here are telling you, it’s so fucking sheer that everyone else can and will see right through it to what you are.
Flour massacre
What does the Biden admin ‘changing their rhetoric’ while still doing the exact same material things do, except help launder and disguise the continued participation in genocide?
Aiding and abetting genocide is just a “complaint” to you?
Honestly my guy if that’s where your at, why not just be a Trump supporter, it’s clear you have no principles or sense of morality so what’s holding you back from going all the way, is it the decorum?
That’s what you think you read? I can’t even figure where you think you see that. No, that’s not what I think.
You literally called people’s opposition to Biden’s support for genocide “complaints”, are you high on something? You can barely conceal your racism you dumb fuck lmao
You don’t understand those complaints. If you did you wouldnt be talking down to people like this.
You contradict yourself in a single reply here.
On the one hand you admit “The uncommitted votes seem to have moved his rhetoric … it is something.”
But then you go on to contradict that by implying we’ve “achieved nothing”. You seem like you’re not a serious person at all. Or at the very least not intellectually honest.
Wow so you’re telling me it’s working and we should stop? Great idea idiot
I see you support the uncommitted movement and thats good in my book. However, do you think the left should vote uncommitted in the primary but still vote for Biden in November?
I think that id Trump is elected in November then things get worse for Palestine. What do you think?
Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. American support for Israeli atrocities has been bipartisan foreign policy for decades. Both Biden and Trump are rabid on this issue. The only difference is that democrats will pretend it’s the Likud party or honestly just Netanyahu’s fault and not the actual inherent nature of a settler colonial regime. Republicans don’t bother with such formalities. They are more honest about their bloodthirst. (I wonder why? Could it be that looking at Israel is like looking in the mirror for Amerikkkans?)
How? How can things possibly get worse? What do you even think Trump could do to make things worse for people who are already being starved to death while being bombed?