I don’t care how “nice” someone is, I’m Trans and if someone disagrees with my basic rights then they can piss off.
And no decent person needs to be trans to agree.
If anything, any “decent person” should be angry as hell that there are people out there not being treated decently. Because that’s just fucked up.
This is why I kept getting so angry during the pandemic. Refusing to even just wear a mask can straight up hurt, if not kill others. How can someone care so little to be unwilling to do that small of a compromise?
I had a family member refuse to visit an elderly sick family member because they’d have to wear a mask. Made me so angry. So much respect for them just evaporated.
When anyone is not free…
Generally speaking, I’ve found people who issue incredibly hot takes on trans rights when its just an abstract issue come around when they actually start meeting and getting to know trans people.
My wife’s uncle took a near-180 position on trans rights after his now-son transitioned. He’d gone on these little grumpy talk-radio fueled rants ten years ago. Now - if he still feels that way - he mostly just keeps that shit to himself. Occasionally he says something genuinely supportive or at least passively benign, to the effect of “I don’t see why its such a big deal, people need to just let each other live their lives peacefully.”
I also gotta say, these ideas don’t crop up ex nihilo. When someone disagrees with basic human rights, its often an idea that was planted by some kind of right-wing propaganda channel. Sports Radio is a constant vector for the worst possible opinions from the sleaziest imaginable people. The AM Talk shit that gets blared across every major city is pure brain-cancer. And YouTube’s algorithms are filled to burst with the smarmiest bigots on the internet, getting front-paged thanks to thick walleted bigots with an ideological incentive to propagate this crap. If this wasn’t constantly in the air, attitudes towards trans people would immediately improve.
Some folks are legit blackpilled on trans rights. But when its immediate friends and family, I’ve found they’re a lot more flexible and tolerant towards people they know than some vague fuzzy abstracted-away trans person. Once they realize what they’re listening to and turn that shit off, their positions improve dramatically.
Yeah idk. I cut off my parents because they continued to support trump and refused to use my preferred name after I came out to them. They gave me some bullshit about how “respect goes both ways” and that I have to “honor” them by allowing them to use my original name, but obviously that doesn’t fly when 1) the name they gave me is exclusively masculine and 2) the name is literally the religion they follow which I hate. All while telling me they want me to go back to church / seek god as if that will somehow help with my gender dysphoria, despite knowing the truth that all they’ll try to do is convert me back to being cis. I was hoping they’d come around, but I’m also not at all surprised they didn’t because they’ve been stuck in their stupid backwards thinking for so long.
They gave me some bullshit about how “respect goes both ways”
“For us to respect how you want to life your life. You have to respect how we want you to live your life.”
This is what they’re actually saying, and yes its bullshit. If those are the rules they live by, then you should also be able to tell them how they live their lives, which I’m sure they’d balk at immediately.
“If you don’t respect my authority, I won’t respect your humanity.”
Its worse: Respecting parent’s authority prevents recognition of the adult offspring’s humanity.
Going to take a wild guess at that name. But ffs, they could at least aim for a compromise at “Christine” or something. Assholes.
I was hoping they’d come around, but I’m also not at all surprised they didn’t because they’ve been stuck in their stupid backwards thinking for so long.
It’s a hard psychological transition and far easier to retreat into conservative social norms. I hope they come around with time, if for no other reason than as you become more feminine its going to be weirder and weirder to keep introducing you as a boy. But yeah, fascist religious leaders can be twice as toxic as any cable news talking head, if for no other reason than they will look you in the eye and shake your hand as they put poison in your ear.
My brother-in-law is completely off the deep end thanks to his Catholic pastor going full MAGA. No idea what to do with him except tune him out and keep an open line exclusively with my nieces, who are still very cute and chill despite him.
Going to take a wild guess at that name. But ffs, they could at least aim for a compromise at “Christine” or something. Assholes.
Right, but I wanted a completely fresh name as I didn’t want any ties to that religion at all (Christine still has “christ” in it)
I hope they come around with time, if for no other reason than as you become more feminine its going to be weirder and weirder to keep introducing you as a boy.
Well, unfortunately for them they won’t be seeing me anymore since I cut them off. They named all of their children (4 others) with some reference to the religion and I guess they’re super offended that I don’t want to use that name at all.
My brother-in-law is completely off the deep end thanks to his Catholic pastor going full MAGA. No idea what to do with him except tune him out and keep an open line exclusively with my nieces, who are still very cute and chill despite him.
That’s really a shame. I know there are some accepting religious people but they seem to be very few and far between.
Using someone’s preferred name is just basic respect. It blows my mind the level of power-tripping that some parents get into.
Their loss. I hope you have a wonderful and supportive chosen family.
Thanks, I appreciate it. Thankfully I have an extremely supportive and loving wife, and ironically her family is somehow accepting of me despite also being trump supporters… Sigh.
I’m still working on growing my chosen family, but I have a very kind neighbor who is accepting of me as well who is becoming somewhat of a father figure for me, so I guess that kinda works.
As usual, they only care when it affects them.
Also, though, this is one of the reasons that Republicans are against college. Because college is often the first time people are exposed to people from other walks of life, and that exposure is the most effective way to make them realize that people are just people.
However, this doesn’t mean that I’m going to stop concealed carrying around Republicans and cutting them out of my life if they express even an ambivalent attitude about the issue, because I don’t trust anyone who can still support that political party and they need to realize that their actions have consequences. Make bigots ashamed again.
I hope that’s true, otherwise I have a lot of family members I’ll need to cut off when I come out
It takes time. If you’ve got a few people in your family who support you, that helps create a wedge to normalize the change. Obviously, YMMV, but I’ve seen people come around in real time. Not impossible by a long shot.
I can’t be friends with someone who votes against my ability to access my medication, and my rights to access healthcare and employment without discrimination. If you are voting for people who think of people like me as subhuman, then you don’t respect me enough to be my friend.
Seriously. Republicans wholly believe I should die because they have to spend 2 cents a year each on medication that keeps people like me alive. Probably less.
Very, VERY much depends on HOW we disagree politically.
The entitlement of the average right winger really is something to behold.
I don’t highly enforce my pronouns. Not because it doesn’t effect me but because being labeled a troublemaker who is hard to get along with is a career limiting move… And some interactions are so limited that it’s not worth creating social awkwardness to self advocate. Days where this happens a lot make me depressed, grumpy and eats into the energy I have reserved to enjoy my leisure time.
Which is why it is so frustrating that some people demand that calling me by my dead name or refer openly to my sex using pronouns I hate is completely consequenceless that even when I tell them the only reprocussion to them is that I will not like being around very much them they get angry. Like I am cheating them of being owed that I automatically enjoy their company.
They are so bloody sensitive that the consequence of me thinking they are kind of shit to be around is somehow a tyranny. I just wanna yell at them like dude… You keep bringing attention to the physical body that represents my least favorite aspects of existing by mentioning directly in conversation because that’s what words like “she”, “her”, “girl” and “woman” mean to you. You might as well be openly talking about my fucking genetalia because that is your only qualifier for using those words. You are reflecting the things I didn’t like about about the experience of myself back at me. If I openly referenced your least favorite physical trait every time casually in conversation how much would you enjoy being around me?
They are egoists who deal only in proclamation of truth.
You stating that it’s even possible for you to not enjoy their company under certain conditions is offensive to their narcissistic ideals that they should be loved unconditionally by all without earning it.
You embracing an identity that falls outside their homogenous narrow-minded gender binary is offensive to their narcissistic ideals that the world should cater to them and only them.
They are people who failed to shed their ego as they emerged into adulthood and now it controls them, and they have decided to pin the blame for all of their problems on people like you. You’re better off not interacting with narcissists at all. They’re walking fountains of delusion and you can never say anything that will make them see you as a human being and a peer of equal value.
Gods I would love to not interact with these narcissists… But I also would like to eat and sleep under a roof and I kind of need to pay the bills so unfortunately dealing with them is the everyday cost of doing business. Is it fair that I labor beneath additional burdens at my work because of dumb political nonsense mischaracterizing everything about people like me and people feel justified in making my life more difficult ? No. But it’s a union gig that pays $15 dollars more than other jobs requiring related skills so I sell my mental health peicemeal so I have a shot at affording to keep my family secure.
I really wouldn’t care if they were random people booing me on the street because then I could just avoid them but the thing is my not putting up with these people holds tangible losses and narcissists are very good at getting themselves into positions where they are the ones who sign the cheques.
Have you spoken with your union rep about this? What they’re doing is creating a hostile work environment and that’s illegal.
I am in Union film work so basically there’s no real solve because all the jobs I am on are only around approximately 8 months before the crew is desolved and rehires happen. I also have taken some of the prerequisite courses for the Steward program and spoken to them directly.
The advice is always the same. Technically I can win my legal right to remain on a single show but they have no obligation to hire me for the next one and its’s well known that taking a boss to arbitration unless everyone basically agrees it is beyond a doubt warranted is career suicide… And every crew is enmeshed in a web of gossip and word of mouth. If basically the hall is empty because everything is busy being “a problem” is fine. But when there’s no work and it’s name requests only I got to be somebody’s go to or I starve.
That is actually a really good explanation for that whole scenario
I used to be like that with sexual harassment at work. Then I just got fucking sick of it and started reporting it. It feels scary at first, then really good. Highly recommend it if you feel comfortable
It’s not a regular situation for me. My individual jobs are 8 months-ish long and rehiring is a very nepotistic thing as people choose their favorite people. I could absolutely win a case to be treated better… But the chances are high I would be burning bridges when the next gig comes. I value my reputation in the industry at large.
If I were at a static job it would be worth it but here they don’t have to fire me, they just don’t have to hire me again.
Jeeesus, this makes me want to take a crowbar to these people.
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Most people in normal conversation when they misgender, it has nothing to do with genitalia and everything to do with they perceive you on the surface tbh. I’ve been misgendered as a sex I don’t identify as and don’t have the genitals of.
You are interpreting my words too narrowly. I am intimatly aware how people read and assume gender… But my point is it is rude as fuck when done deliberately based on sex.
When transphobes misgender so deliberately and refuse to change their behaviour due to their adherence to “the facts” in direct opposition to my personal comfort it is very much in reference to my physical body and prescribing gender as something locked to sex, physical and immutable. If not the secondary sex characteristics then the genitals or the chromasomes or the shape or the skull and hands … the goal posts move to their tastes if they really want to go for broke.
Besides, not all of us pass as our gender. Non binary identities are almost never assumed and conservative people have meltdowns when asked to use they/them pronouns.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don’t feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn’t do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn’t exactly up to snuff here.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don’t feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn’t do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn’t exactly up to snuff here.
Yea this to me shows this is just a response meant to insult. Yes, it is hurtful for everyone to be percieved differently from how they want to be perceived.
This was not intended to insult but quite frankly I get a lot of cis people trying to use anecdotes from their experience of being misgendered… and a lot of it really demonstrates misunderstanding of what misgendering is like from a trans perspective. I have met cis people who legitimately experience gender euphoria and dysphoria but when they speak with other cis people they realize they aren’t experiencing gender the same way. Cis people who experience internalized gender preference are comparatively really rare. From what I have observed lot of what cis people react to when they are misgendered is usually one of three things.
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A miscategorization error. Basically it’s just not factually correct. This can cause social anxiety as one is placed in a position where they might feel a need to correct it.
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A perception of not performing their perscribed social category well. Either because they interpret it as them not being attractive in the right way or because they are not performing up to a standard they were socialized to perform.
Or 3. Misandry /Misogyny - They actually don’t like the other sex because of some reason. Then when they are misgendered it’s like being mischaracterized as a category they feel inherently superior to and react to the implication of perceived inferiority.
Those are the commonalities of the gender experience cis people and trans people share. A lot of the time what cis people interpret as our problem is that we’re just upset at misgendering because this idea we are obsessed with category. When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for. When we trans folk try to explain this this we have no 1 to 1 analogy we can use so we have to use other experiences around a sense of bodily insufficiency that are not quite right but that we know are more more universal.
Which is why folk think gender performativity theory is somehow a trans thing when it’s more accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender. So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that’s going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
What you’re describing is a gender fixation, or a gender performance. You’re right that most cis people don’t experience euphoria, but that’s because they aren’t fixated on it. That doesn’t mean it isn’t deeply unsettling for someone to have their own self perception to be questioned. Which you missed and I think is the biggest thing for people, and is itself the root cause of most insecurity and body dismorphia, because you realize you can’t trust how you perceive yourself. Someone who’s anorexic can’t trust what they see in mirror to know if they’re fat, and they might assume that others who say they’re not are just being nice.
When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for.
You’re not correct to assume this is all trans people, or all cis people. Some cis people are extremely performative with gender, and some trans people aren’t. And, honestly, what you’re describing as your experience sounds closer
accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender
I think it’s more accurate to say most people don’t hyperfixate on gender, just as most don’t hyperfixate on race. It is true there are more experiences that are gatekept by gender, but the gradual erosion of gender is, in my view, a much more equitable goal than encouraging those few who hyperfixate on arbitrary descriptors.
So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that’s going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
Don’t be patronizing
First point, I did not say all cis people experienced gender one way. I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don’t recognize it because cis people aren’t generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don’t tend to talk to each other about it.
Also trans and cis are not perfect categories in this instance, I am using them here as generalization. We don’t actually have a good word yet for this because these observations are kind of in beta. It involves the trans community backwards engineering cisness through asking questions of cis people about their experiences of gender because its becoming more clear through discussion that there is something else going on.
Also I would argue “gender hyperfixation” is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms “like a girl’s” is as much a hyperfixation but it’s for a different reason. A more accurate way I would put it is internal sex characteristic stratification. We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
The example of body of internalized fatphobia and dysmorphia is a parable some of us use to try and explain the experience of an internalized sense of self that deviates from physicality… But it’s imperfect in it’s own way as it focuses too heavily on the impact of routine external validation. Gender dysphoria isn’t external. If it was we’d react to people’s flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
This might work easier as a more back and forth series of questions. So as not to assume your experience let me pick two phenotypic sex characteristics - breasts and thicker folical facial hair. You probably have one of these two characteristics.
How does having that characteristic make you feel?
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it’s patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don’t recognize it because cis people aren’t generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don’t tend to talk to each other about it.
I agree, in that there are cis people that are basically non-fixated nonbinary, and there are hyperfixated cis people.
Also I would argue “gender hyperfixation” is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms “like a girl’s” is as much a hyperfixation but it’s for a different reason.
I would say its just another way that hyperfixation can express itself.
We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
Strong disagree that “we” do, maybe some people do, and that has infected language. But I don’t think most people would say “you’re balding? that’s so masculine of you” or place much value on their finger length ratios.
Gender dysphoria isn’t external.
I don’t really agree with this, obviously I can’t speak for the experience of others- but at least for my own experience, with anything- I can only evaluate myself an inherently relative description in relation/comparison to others. If there is only 1 person in the world what does it even mean for them to be masculine or feminine? There is no frame of reference. If there were only 1 human, they aren’t tall or short, they just are. That contrasts with something less inherently relative, like eye color. But obviously, the color itself is relative. I don’t think someone could have body dysmorphia, or gender dysphoria, if they weren’t* inherently comparing their own body or gender expression to others- and for many people they care about how that is evaluated by others- but you’re right, it could solely be one comparing themselves to others. Like Alan Watts said "you love yourself in terms of what is other, because it’s only in terms of what is other that you have a self at all. ". Or in the terms of the missile “The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn’t.”
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it’s patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I have no clue. I can’t abstract it from those judgements, and those would be the only ways I would judge it anyways.
Edit:
If it was we’d react to people’s flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
For a lot of trans people their goal in transitioning is to be passing in the eyes of others or in their own eyes(ie in comparison to others).
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Politics are people’s ethics and morality applied.
It is perfectly valid to judge people over them, and to shame people because of them. Just like you’d shame someone for littering.
Or even more aptly: just like you’d shame someone for using the N word. It is perfectly legal; it is NOT acceptable.
The problem with a two party system is that it polarizes the grey areas where a lot of people don’t have friendship or family ending feelings. When people subscribe whole heartedly to party mindsets they gain friends in that group but wall themselves off from others.
When people subscribe whole heartedly to party mindsets they gain friends in that group but wall themselves off from others.
This is when people make their political views part of their identity. If the party does something that you don’t agree with you are faced with two choices (sub-consciously); either you change your views to match the party, or you invalidate part of your identity. Depending on how big a part of your identity you have subsumed to the party; the harder it is to break that part of your identity.
It is always a worrying sign when someone says “I am a <insert political party here>”; rather than saying “I support <insert political party here>”. Support can easily be modified and revoked, your identity is not so easy to change.
Sad to see that basic human rights are party mindsets still.
That is true. But I think in today’s political climate, it is fair to conflate people’s political affiliation with the extremes of the party. Like “fiscally responsible republicans”, you can’t run away from the other bigoted policies of republicans. Same with democrats and things like immigration and supplying arms to Israel.
It’s a hard landscape to navigate, now probably more than ever.
That’s why Europe is better
Europe has it’s own problems. Anti-muslim bigotry is rampant in many countries, as is anti-immigrant and refuge sentiment.
And England has made itself the home of transphobia thanks to a certain misogynistic, racist, and homophobic/transphobic children’s author who everyone there seems to take seriously.
America has own problems too. And some countries can destabilize because of immigrants. Poland for example
Absolutely. I think most of this thread is about the many problems America has.
Doesn’t mean Europe is any better. Every country has their bigots.
100% People who think that disagreements about other people’s right to exist are just matters of taste reveal how deeply hateful they are. This is not a matter for compromise.
They’d probably go something like, “but I don’t have a problem with you existing (if you happen to be in their “in” group), it’s just others who aren’t you I don’t want to exist, why do you have a problem with that??”
Same type of person who thinks they can completely fuck over one person without affecting their relationships with mutual friends, like everything is a set of one on one relationships that can’t overlap.
“And I have a problem with republicans existing. Not you. But every other Republican should die”.
I guess they wouldn’t see it in the same light as their own shit.
What mainstream ideology says a certain demographic of people shouldn’t exist?
Of course you can have differing opinions and be friends. There are obviously scales of importance.
If you believe people with a different skin color than you should be slaves, we won’t be friends.
If you believe Trans rights shouldn’t exist, we won’t be friends.
If you believe climate change is a world ending catastrophe and all cars should be baned we may be able to be friends because I disagree on the baning of cars.
If you think gun reform is required we will probably be friends but we will probably have different ideas of how to go about it.
I dunno, I’ve thought about this and genuinely think it doesn’t matter what your view on specific topics are. You could be the nicest person that only agrees with a few items on the Republican platform, but at the end of the day you support and empower them. Anyone deciding to vote Republican is essentially signing off on the entire platform. They can say they only want gun rights, but their vote still helps blocks medical access for women.
I live in a heavy Mormon area and think the same about them. I know many very nice Mormons who are ok with LGBT folks, but they still pay their tithe to the church and that money is used to fight against care for them. At the end of the day they are knowingly contributing to a system that hurts people, that’s the line for me.
Thanks for your thought out and well formed opinion. I can see where you are coming from and it makes sense.
What if that Mormon person thought that the church was overall good, disagrees with some things they are doing and are in the faith to try to change it from the inside via voicing their opinions, talking with leadership, etc?
That’s a great question. So if you look at all the good the church does and say “I like the idea of this” and but your pro LGBT so you don’t like that aspect of the church.
I think that’s a personal choice at that point. You have to weigh the good vs the bad. For me it’s a clear choice. Mormons mostly only help other Mormons and you lose that help if you stop paying your tithing. So to me it seems like a membership you pay to be part of a community that can help you. But that same community hurts people. So with the idea that it’s a paid club that helps each other, it doesn’t justify the harm it does. Especially when that harm is done by forcing their views on others.
As for changing it from the inside, I don’t see a lot of room for that. They have a living prophet selected by God. What they say goes, and the church is very big on rules. Historically the best way to force change for them has been external, social driven pressure around things like black priests and such.
that sounds good on paper but it would only work between people that don’t vote and never voiced who they would vote.
I would while heartedly disagree. Especially with the American system. With the 2 party system we have to pick the person that most aligns with our ideals. I have friends that voted for Trump because the were business owners and he had better policies for them but they hated other things he stood for.
I have friends that voted for Biden because he has better policies for the lower/middle classes.
I have friends that voted for Biden because they just hated Trump that much.
I have friends that voted 3rd party because ef it “my vote doesn’t matter”.
Doesn’t mean I can’t be friends with them. Everyone has reasons for voting the way they do.
My issue with your statement is “never voiced who they would vote for”. In my opinion it is the lack of ability to reasonably talk about why you are voting one way or another is a big issue with what is going on in the American political system.
I have friends that voted for Trump because the were business owners and he had better policies for them but they hated other things he stood for.
Sounds like some people I wouldn’t be friends with
Yeah, if you voted for trump a 2nd time that’s a no go for me. If you voted for him once I’ll need an explanation and how you have changed.
I have friends that voted for Trump because the were business owners and he had better policies for them but they hated other things he stood for.
Spoken like a true businessperson
Same. If you’re willing to sell out minority groups for tax breaks, you don’t deserve the protections of society.
That’s fine, not everyone needs to be friends with everyone. I kind of like them though
I kind of like them though
And that’s all that matters to you, the impact their (and your) choices have on the rest of society aren’t a factor to you, and it shows. You ignoring their vote for trump because you “kind of like them” is just as bad and selfish as them voting for him because they own a small business.
Which is exactly why I wouldn’t be friends not only with someone I don’t agree with politically, but also anyone who pretends like political leanings don’t matter - because you’re an enabler and actively complicit in making bigots feel safe and comfortable.
And that is perfectly fine. We are allowed to choose our friends and how we find them. If you want to live in an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you that’s fine. That’s just not for me. I’m friends with many people from all walks of life. From business owners to a someone that is surfing other people’s couches and sometimes not so lucky.
Depending on where they are at in life they change what is “important” to them. The stay at home mom isn’t against helping the homeless but it isn’t the top of her list of priorities. She cares more about the reproductive rights and Medicare.
She voted for Trump the first time and biden the second. Does that make her a terrible person I shouldn’t be friends with? I don’t think so
If you want to like people that vote against everyone’s interests, electing a wannabe dictator because it puts money in their own pocket, have at it man.
and if Trump being a FELON And RAPIST isn’t enough to get you to overcome the Democrat bias you were raised with… you are a sad, disgusting person. No, we cannot be friends if you support him. Kamala: I want to support the working class and help people buy homes. Trump: I will immediately punish everyone who has opposed me. The two sides are not the same. Maybe before Trump you could pretend they were. They weren’t… but the GOP kinda pretended they weren’t fascist POSs. Project 2025 just fucking comes out and says it. They want to overthrow democracy.
The GOP under Trump is more ethical than it was under Bush. Fewer children killed and PATRIOT Acts signed
They are saying two different things.
But why would you believe Kamala is radically different is beyond me. It’s lawful evil vs chaotic evil. Yes, with evil you’d prefer lawful.
All you’re saying is your entirely ignorant of the political outcomes of the last century, you aren’t smart or enlighten because you think ‘both sides’. If Hillary won we wouldn’t being dealing with a stuffed supreme court as well many other courts all over the country that have blatantly done all they can to give every action of Republicans the appearance of legality. We wouldn’t have lost over 1mil people in a pandemic. We wouldn’t be having courts openly consider resetting our entire legal system to the 1770s including full blown racist laws, we wouldn’t be fighting for our basic rights. The level to which you’re completely wrong is HIGH.
I don’t think “both sides”. I think they are the same side. That of establishment, or of elites, or of “the rich” if you like that rhetoric.
We wouldn’t be having courts openly consider resetting our entire legal system to the 1770s including full blown racist laws, we wouldn’t be fighting for our basic rights. The level to which you’re completely wrong is HIGH.
Yes, threatening you with “authoritarianism or barbarism” is more persuasive if barbarism is real. I’m not saying there’s anything else on the ballot.
One side: We are rich and hate poor people.
The other side: We are rich and hate poor people, and also want to kill minorities and the people we think are deviants.
You: wow, totally the same.
Since they can’t exist without each other - yes.
I’m pretty sure the world can exist without Nazis. In fact, it did for a long time. It’s only recent history.
I meant that Republicans and Democrats of today can’t exist without each other.
Also no, it didn’t.
i CaN hAvE A dIfFeReNt oPiNiOn, bRo! Gaawd!
(Fascism is not an opinion. It’s a fucking disease.)
This reminds me of the, “We can negotiate and find a middle ground” argument. No we fucking can’t. Your opening position is so extreme that there is no possible way that we can find a middle ground because even the middle ground would be too extreme for me to accept.
Exactly… if person A wants to kill 1 million people and person B wants NO people killed Should they compromise on only killing half a million?
“This person refuses to negotiate in good faith!”
Exactly.
Compromise is bad, conversation is good though
Fascists and other haters should not be invited to tea and crumpets and an open, honest exchange of ideas.
You sound like a hater of fascists
I am, very much.
ok no tea for you then
Can I have a crumpet?
Maybe
We can’t be friends. Ok. But we can still fuck. Right?
Wth dude. No. I mean, once maybe.
That’s how it starts…
Let me give you one tip…
Just the tip?
Let’s just see where the night leads us.
They literally crashed grindr. So yes.
Part of the issue is, what we used to think of as “politics”, the discourse about what’s best for society and what will lead to happy lives for all, is rarely spoken about. What we have now is “RAGE-politics”, where people insert completely ridiculous non-sequitur concepts about who’s at fault into the minds of malleable victims and have them frame it as an identity.
Insurrection is not a political point of view.
I have friends from all over the spectrum (both kinds). I don’t care if they’re assholes or arrogant, but I appreciate they’re politically motivated and fight for what they believe in.
Being friends with them also helps deradicalize them. If they’re a good person, why not be a ground truth to help them see what’s going on?
If your political opinion includes the phrase " you should die"
It’s going to be hard to stay friends
I dont know. I can still be friendly and even be friends with people who support the death penalty even though it sounds completely barbaric to me.
What mainstream unironic political platform would call directly for saying specific people need to die. (Excluding foreign people because it seem everyone involved is happy when its Gaddafi or Saddam
My brother didn’t believe there were homeless children and didn’t want universal healthcare because it would support fat people.
How do I just carry on as if that isn’t simultaneously hilariously stupid and depressingly evil?
