Anything that helps legitimize trump (increase overall pop vote numbers, regardless of loss) or props up green party and stein with a stated intention to get trump elected, in fact “helps trump”
Considering a vote for Dr. Jill Stein? I’m open if you have some insight I’m missing, but in my experience the green party has some exciting ideas on the surface, as lip service, but the party doesn’t put in meaningful work in interim government outside of a presidential election cycle every 4 years. So it’s a meaningless party.
You may think, “I’m in a solid red or blue state where my vote can’t influence at the national level”, but I find it hard to support Green/Stein in any capacity with how blatantly Stein has, in my opinion, been knowingly running as a spoiler candidate. The Green party has a (now publicly stated) intention to have Harris lose Michigan specifically. Below is clip from a Stein rally in Dearborn, Michigan. A surrogate for Stein is about to introduce her and spells out their intentions very clearly during remarks,
"We are not in a position to win the White House, but we do have a real opportunity to win something historic… we could deny Kamala Harris the state of Michigan. And the polls show that most likely Harris cannot win the election without Michigan.”
I would ask anyone considering a vote for Stein, in any state, to consider that truth they speak openly - When they are admitting that they can’t win, stating a goal to defeat the Harris campaign and acknowledging that Harris likely cannot win the election without Michigan, the undeniable net of that is that they are working to directly secure a second trump presidency, in my opinion.
As I see it, we just cannot have it both ways in a two party system. If the green party was a serious movement working against two party politics (and I would personally embrace and support this) they would become THE platform for ranked choice voting with a green party candidate in every meaningful on/off year election to make that issue ubiquitous with green. They speak endlessly about the flawed two party system (with a clear bias towards shitting in dems), but in the current two party system we actually have, you can’t cast a protest vote without actually casting a vote for trump in this election - And that cannot be stated more clearly than this green party spokesperson states it at this event before Stein speaks.
Here is a link to direct feed of that green party rally in Dearborn Michigan if anyone wants to see first hand to consider. It’s a longer video, but it starts at the point discussed and surrogate makes the above quoted statement within about the first minute speaking. https://youtu.be/WKSm2FQ8z60?t=5153
And trump acknowledges as much directly mentioning Stein and green party campaign by name recently,
“Cornel West — he’s one of my favorite candidates, Cornel West,” Trump said. "And I like — I like her also. Jill Stein. I like her very much. You know why? She takes 100% from [Biden]. [West] takes 100%. Kennedy’s probably 50/50, but he’s a fake.”
https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/trump-speech-jill-stein-cornel-west-rcna158627
I’ve heard individual positions I like from West, Stein and others in the past, but in my opinion if they aren’t fighting to be the bridge to engage the flawed structure of elections in this country as third parties, these are just campaigns driven more by individual candidate ego than a motivation for systemic change.
Those are my thoughts.
If the dems lose votes to the greens it will be because of their own fucking policies including genocide. They could always change their policies. But instead they blame the public.
I get the logic you put forth. Yet as someone who lives in a more diverse democracy (although it has been getting dangerously more polarized in the recent decades), I’m always baffled by this presumption that a candidate deserves someone’s vote by default.
In this case, let’s say there aren’t any other parties on the ballot other than the Democrats and Republicans. In Michigan specifically you have a voter group, that says that they cannot vote for genocide especially if it is against their own families or people that look like them. And both parties are either promising the continuation thereof or have been engaged in it and have been excluding anything related to addressing it, or people representing that voter group, from their campaign. So the presumption, that if there wasn’t a Green Party to vote for that they would be coming out to vote for the Democrats is imho just flawed. They might just as likely stay home.
What I find even more baffling is that this party can’t seem to clearly outperform the even more clearly dangerous candidate to democracy. The Arabic or Muslim population in Michigan should not be this decisive for the outcome, if the Democrats were able to actually persuade voters to turn out by delivering an attractive policy plan, thereby earning the votes, instead of just arrogantly thinking, they’re entitled to them.
Didn’t I read something somewhere about her being a Nazi or Russian spy or some shit?
Removed by mod
G.R.E.E.N
Get
Republicans
Elected
Every
November
Removed by mod
I heard a piece on Here And Now today about a group of single issue voters in Dearborn that is actively working to disrupt and damage the Harris campaign. They are trying to get dems to vote for Stein.
“single issue voters” 🤣 🤣 🤣
“stop blowing up my family”
okay SiNgLe IsSuE vOtEr
It seems like they’re using multiple strategies in an effort to put pressure on the Dems. Some are saying that they are going to vote for Trump even though they are also anti-Trump. Their logic is that Kamala is actively contributing to a genocide, whereas Trump is not.
I doubt there is anything they can do to actually make Democrat politicians feel pressure, but I do agree with their sentiments. I’m not voting for some who is pro-genocide. Trump is both pro-genocide and fascist. I’m also not going to vote for a 3rd party candidate because most 3rd parties focus on the presidential race more than they focus on grassroots efforts.
I mean they’re naming an illegal settlement after trump and Netanyahu is explicitly advocating for trump. What’s crazy is polls show Kamala would get like a 6 point poll boost by breaking with biden on this and saying something a little more forceful about a peace deal, such as a deadline where arms deals are halted. It would almost singlehandedly secure michigan.
Their logic is that Kamala is actively contributing to a genocide, whereas Trump is not.
Even though he literally is, has put the Israeli Embassy in Jerusalem, and has advocated for the deployment of nukes in Gaza…
Their logic is that Kamala is actively contributing to a genocide, whereas Trump is not.
This is literally the most braindead political take I’ve ever heard, and that’s saying a lot
It’s a classic “technically true, but not particularly useful” information tidbit. Harris is in office, Trump isn’t.
Of course, you could argue that Vance - as a powerful member of the US Senate - is participating in the genocide while Walz - a governor of a midwestern state with no meaningful role in foreign policy - isn’t. Equally true, but meaningless.
The problem Harris has isn’t that Trump gets innocence-by-default by being out of office for four years. Its that she’s doggedly clinging to the “both sides” framing of the Israeli genocide and scaring off Arab-American voters as a consequence. It doesn’t matter whether Harris is better or worse than Trump when the baseline of US policy is the mass slaughter of your friends and family.
It’s a classic “technically true, but not particularly useful” information tidbit. Harris is in office, Trump isn’t.
Harris is in an office that is entirely powerless (yes, she casts a vote in the event of a Senate tie, but no bill funding Israel has come down to that). She and Trump have nothing to do with the (current) Palestinian genocide.
Harris is in an office that is entirely powerless
Harris has enormous amounts of power by simply having access to the President’s phone 24/7. That’s before you get into how much authority she’s been delegated by a man whose brains are leaking out of his ears.
And you’ve confirmed that you don’t understand how the President works. He isn’t simply the King of America who can wave a magic wand and do what he wants.
The problem that Harris has is the mountains of propaganda working against her.
Not saying she’s perfect, but in a practical sense the spin matters FAR more than the facts.
I agree that it’s a bad take. But at this point I think that they’re desperate, trying anything they can to get Kamala to change course. It’s an urgent issue that can be solved easily: just stop supplying weapons and aid to Israel. Four years from now, most Palestinians living in Palestine will already be dead.
That loses older uninformed democrat voters unfortunately
it’s not just uninformed voters, my grandfather is a retired history teacher and, he firmly believes that while Isreal is in the wrong, that it’s not in the US best interest to drop them. He’s worries that the destabalization of the area further will invite other foreign adversaries to invade it while also losing basically the only is friendly territory around. He’s worried it’ll be a repeat of the last time
Voting is a strategic choice, not an endorsement. You should vote for the candidate who you would rather have in office.
The kids are alright.
A side effect of me being terminally online is that you can predict the top comment of some posts
Young women are alright, right wing support amongst <35 y.o. men is surprisingly high…
Agreed. I’m a teacher and see it in my classrooms. I often feel that they’re not taught how to have healthy community, so they become lil fascists…
They know this shit isn’t working, so they’re siding with the ones who give them someone to blame… It’s that simple…
If they’re like my nephew, the “manosphere” gives them easy answers as to why everything seems to suck.
Tell your nephew that Trump just said he’ll ban video games if he wins.
It’s also the only answer. Society has really neglected boys for a long time now.
It doesn’t help that every time we point out how society failed boys, there’s always someone who says it’s misogynistic to show men any concern…
Being a guy is no cake walk, and if anyone can say that with a straight face it’s me.
lights up a cigarette They say women like a bad boy, well, I was so bad at being a boy I became a girl.
Yup. Patriarchy did them dirty. Society told them they had to be strong, stoic, and without emotion. And when that butted up against the realities of being a human we didn’t have any community to lead them towards living a good and healthy life.
You can fault the Right for a lot of things but they got there first on this one. They have a story for why things suck and they’re pounding the drum on it relentlessly. It doesn’t matter that this story is full of holes when the alternative is not compelling.
Yup. The propaganda machine moved quick when they realized this population could be manipulated into action outside of message boards.
Patriarchy did em dirty, but feminism also left them behind. It’s not just patriarchal society that forces men to be strong and stoic, it’s also self-professed feminists, especially women. Feminists say men should be more in touch with their emotions, but when they do so women have no interest in them. That’s one of the realities of life you mentioned.
Every single woman I know wants a guy in touch with their emotions. And those who found them, married them.
Tell your friends to stop trying to date under 25 year olds. We get over that shit at about this age.
That’s still patriarchy, my guy. They’ve been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn’t benefit them, and they’re perpetuating it because they don’t like how it feels to step outside of it.
when they do so women have no interest in them.
Personally, I find my experience to be much the opposite. But, I’m also in my late thirties so, experiences may differ.
You need to hang out with better women, my man.
Yup. And it’s always women and brown folks.
Don’t forget LGBTQ and furries. 🙄
The amount of times I’ve had to address the “students using litter boxes” schtick is absolutely mind boggling.
It’s always a school two towns over, and it’s always someone who has no attachment to the school attempting to push it.
right wing support amongst <35 y.o. men is surprisingly high…
The media is flush with fascist attitudes in a country where going on the computer and listening to fascist rants is all you’re allowed to do with your time.
“in a country where […] all you’re allowed to do with your time.”
Eh… The same phenomenon is observed all over first world countries and all of those countries you’re allowed to do mostly whatever the fuck you want with your free time…
you’re allowed to do mostly whatever the fuck you want with your free time…
You’re free to do what you want and the police are free to rough you up for loitering.
I have great hope that they’ll be better than our generation, just as we were better than our parents. Fuck the ‘fuck the kids’ mentality.
I’m a classroom teacher, and I find that you’ve gotta sometimes have both “fuck them kids” and “for the kids” in different measures. But overall, I feel like they’re doing a lot of cool things.
That’s a good point. I think that one of the myths that needs to die is that if the cherubic, sweet, innocent, and pure child. Many children, without guidance, are sociopathic assholes. We’re not born “good” then corrupted by the world, we’re born with some personality traits that may or may not help us as social creatures and need help to learn how to handle our emotions and cooperate with others in a manner that is pro-social.
Yup. Like John Green, I’m generally in favor of humans, but we’ve got some perfectly natural tendencies that can really harm others if left unchecked. I think kids want to do good, but they need to be taught how to, given the space to practice, and corrected with grace when they fuck it up.
if you live in a state with preferential voting (eg alaska, maine?) wouldn’t you be better off voting green if they represent you views better?
The Green Party, maybe. Jill Stein, with the stuff she’s been saying I am not quite sure if she would actually present your views better or if she’s an actual competent leader. Of course you can have the question of the best of the worst, but then still I’m not sure if she compares well.
What states have ranked choice?
Alaska and Maine.
Good. Scammers need to be called out and avoided at all costs.
A vote for Stein is a vote for Trumph
A vote for Stein is a vote for Stein. Don’t try to bend logic.
Voting third party is viable when we change the voting system, to ranked choice voting for example. Until that time comes, the two primary parties will remain dominant.
That is never going to happen.
It’s literally already happening. Locality by locality state by state at least take the time to look around you before you make any absolute statements. It’s going to take forever at the national level absolutely. Far longer than I should. But it can and will happen.
It’s sure not going to happen by voting for Stein.
It’s more like throwing your vote in the garbage, with the electoral college, but thanks for revealing what you are so I can block you
Blocking people just because of who they vote for?! lol Ok…
No one owes anyone engagement. Especially someone like you. Who’s showing themselves repeatedly to be disingenuous and bad faith. You don’t have to like it. But there’s nothing you can do about it. Outside of act like a better person.
If voting for a third party is throwing your vote in the garbage, voting for parties backing a genocide is throwing it into the toilet.
Nope, sorry. Since those parties can win, your vote will not be wasted.
Amen, brother!
Uncommited movement: “Guess I won’t vote”
Yall mfs gonna cost Universalmonk his Lada.
Gonna say, that assclown missed an article
Shouldn’t be hard to convince anyone not to vote for her who doesn’t hate minorities.
Just let him know that David Duke endorsed Jill Stein.
If that isn’t a literal mic drop on her campaign idk what more can be done. Just make sure everyone knows before they approach a voting booth.
She rejected the endorsement. Even if she is throwing the election don’t put that crap on her. She can’t control David Duke
Dick fucking Cheney endorsed Harris and she embraced it. And her poll numbers plummetted. That’s a bigger problem with an actual consequence.
Wait til you find out Dick Cheney endorsed Harris! Probably the chief architect of the “GWOT”, responsible for over 1 million dead. Fuck David Duke, but he’s fuckin small potatoes compared to Dick-Vader.
Duke endorsed Stein because she does not support Israel.
The Stein campaign called David Duke trash and disavowed him.
The dishonesty here staggering.
Ooh that’s some good /agedlikemilk
Duke is endorsing for Stein, because Stein does not support Israel and Duke is antisemitic.
Koch’s is voting for Harris, because she works for the billionaire class and he is a billionaire.
One of these two is not like the other.
Because as everyone should know by now. The only acceptable hypocrisy is leninist hypocrisy.
Stein earned the endorsement from a bad person by doing something good.
Harris earned the endorsement from a bad person by doing something bad.
Lmao bro David Duke is an overt white supremacist. The association alone is damning, despite the disavowal.
Your argument is that anyone who does not support Israel is a KKK member.
That is absolutely not what I am saying
The association alone is damning
He just said he supports her. That’s not an association. He agrees with her on her policy towards Israel. Unless you think her policy towards Israel is unreasonable and only would be held by a white supremacist, then its a ridiculous position to try and maintain, because it basically says that anyone who opposes us support of Israel agrees with David Duke and thus is “associated” with him.
Mental gymnastics Olympic event right here. Not at all surprised to see Nazis and KKK fighting for the gold.
I made my point and can defend it. You just hand waved it away with some empty accusation.
It’s clear who has more faith in their position. Both you and I know it too.
Now do Cheney and Harris
What am I supposed to do? Repeated that an endorsement is a one way thing?
I see you’re continuing to defend former KKK leader David Duke.
If you’re wondering if I care to hear your defense, I don’t.
Cheers!
Lol in what fantasy world have I been defending David Duke?
Huh, the Nazi agrees with her stance on Israel? I mean, fuck Israel, but I wouldn’t want that endorsement on me.
And she denounced him. So clearly she doesn’t want it either.
How do you do fellow young adults.
Shill who?
So much energy from democrats that they should instead spend on pressuring their party leadership to change their evil policy of genocide support.
Gen Z advocacy group
Is just code for “DC Consulting firm”. The energy is less popular appeals and more paid professional trolls.
I read “totally organic grassroots movement” and hear “PAC funded astroturf campaign”
Probably a fair assessment. Honestly, the energy I’m thinking of is all these Lemmy users.
I don’t know, this might be a pretty effective strategy
It might.
