- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
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They gonna call Bernard “I got into politics because my extended family literally died in the holocaust” Sanders antisemitic now?
“While Israel has the right to go after Hamas, Netanyahu’s right-wing extremist government does not have the right to wage almost total warfare against the Palestinian people,” the Vermont senator said in a statement.
Seems like his views on this are pretty much aligned with that of typical israelis.
And yet that’s the same view that has had people screaming about anti-semitism for the past month.
Dumb people are going to dumb.
Doesn’t change facts though.
Aren’t most Israelis calling for the expulsion of Palestinians from the region?
idk about a majority…There was a massive protest outside Netanyahu’s house.
Israeli’s are bombing their own civilians that are being held hostage right now. They are killing their own as if they are disposable.
Well I’m sure the families of the hostages aren’t super happy about the way the war is being waged, but I wonder about the others. He did get voted in, and a lot more legitimately than Hamas in Gaza which was years before half their population was old enough to vote.
Well Trump, Putin and Hitler also were voted in.
But I doubt the majority would vote for them again given the chance.
I have to admit that I do not know. Probably not? How they think about it currently might be a bit different from how they thought about it 2 months ago.
My understanding is that they’re pretty displeased with both Hamas and Netanjahu’s government and are mostly blaming both for the current catastrophe.
Senator Sanders is in lockstep with Biden & rest of Democratic caucus’s view here. There is a big push not to lose the path for a two-state solution and to pause West Bank settlement expansion. Wouldn’t be surprised if President Biden’s friend Bernard consulted with him about this beforehand.
It’s almost like it’s a complex problem with no easy solution
So was South Africa and the Native Americans and the racial relations in the US and countless other situations but we still try to inrpove them.
I’m not saying to ignore the problem, I’m saying that the solution won’t fit in a tweet or a lemmy text box
Ya, probably more grad paper thesis territory lol. For South Africa, I know the reconciliation meetings had not only South Africans but people from all around the world, so we’d probably need the same thing here. International law and relations experts, experts on deconolization, history, political theory, constitutions from around the world, etc.
Although i know that also kind of caused the problem in the first place, a bunch of foreigners drawing lines on a map to dictate what happens to the natives. Hopefully this time they’d have a bigger say.
No, come on, don’t be like that. We can do this.
If there is one thing I don’t like about Lemmy (and social media in general) its that a majority of people can’t grasp complex sitstuons or solutions and cling to the thing they dislike without consideration for everything else.
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Most of the “complexity” comes from the fact that Israel directly funded Hamas while sabotaging every attempt for a moderate, secular Palestinian state, with the deliberate intention to create a propaganda-friendly enemy that they can justify war crimes against and eradicate Palestinians under the guise of collateral damage.
complex problem
It’s amazing how “westerners” always hide behind “complexity” when it comes to the white supremacist colonialism they’ve helped create…
That was 75 years ago my guy, neither of us had anything to do with it
It’s still an anti colonial struggles. Right now Palestinians are resisting efforts by Israeli settlers who are using the “war” and the IDF to expand their holdings in West Bank.
It’s also still an open question as to whether Palestinians who left North Gaza will be allowed back in. Several Israeli ministers have said that pushing them out should be the goal and the Prime Minister has publicly said Israel should just keep Gaza after this military campaign.
Not many people still alive, but the exact same imperial systems we’re working the gears on today.
had anything to do with it
Oh… were you running interference for a white supremacist settler-colonialist state today or 75 years ago?
This is a lot easier to say from the other side where you don’t have to face the consequences for doing something. Americans don’t really have a choice, they can either vote for the Democrats or the Republicans or throw their vote away. Peaceful protest has long ceased to function and is mostly a tool for the opposing powers of the current party in power.
Just look at the people of France, famous for not taking shit, suddenly neutered because the increasingly authoritarian government simply doesn’t care if they burn Paris down. Or the UK and the Tories running rampant. Canada’s rising far right movement. Governments are no longer accountable to the people. In powerful countries, the only things left that people can do lead to imprisonment or death.
And I guarantee you wouldn’t do anything about this either if you were born American. Consider yourself lucky you’re not, and hope your country doesn’t slide into the same position where neither you nor your people will do anything about it either.
where you don’t have to face the consequences for doing something.
Face consequences for what, exactly? Not regurgitating white supremacist pro-Israeli propaganda on lemmy? Exactly what consequences will they face?
Governments are no longer accountable to the people
They never were, and it has never been a valid excuse for toeing the party line. That’s what the entire “complexity” schtick is all about - it’s just another fig leaf to hide behind and you know it.
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This man could have been the president
Not if the DNC had anything to do about it, and they did.
After all, they’re part of The Big Club.
(NSFW - language)
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Wrong, what they did with the superdelegates and how they reported the numbers made a lot of people vote Hillary or not at all because the graphs said she was ahead right out of the gate when all they had counted was those superdelegates. Bernie would have beat Trump in the general, there’s no doubt in my mind, but a lot of democrats just couldn’t hold their nose hard enough to vote for Hillary. “Her turn” my ass.
Plus her whole campaign really just showed how out of touch she is with the average citizen. After the DNC debacle she really just shot herself in the foot, repeatedly.
Bernie also ran in 2020. If he would have won South Carolina in the 2020 primary, he could be President now as that was the state that caused Joe Biden to rise to the favorite. Not acknowledging his electoral weakness doesn’t help in getting another progressive to win in the future. The DNC and corporate media are going to try and surpress progressive candidates whether with superdelegate reporting or something else, but Bernie’s strategy didn’t move the needle to be winning in the south.
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I voted for him, but I have a feeling his agenda would have gone nowhere thanks to the corporate ass-kissers in both parties in congress and the judiciary. Maybe we don’t deserve social democracy.
I voted for him, but I have a feeling his agenda would have gone nowhere thanks to the corporate ass-kissers in both parties in congress and the judiciary. Maybe we don’t deserve social democracy.
Not with that attitude we don’t.
that kind of defeatism guarantees that we will never have a morally upstanding president.
You are a part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sanders would not get everything he wants done in a term, but any progress is better than our current puppet presidents
Nah, tho. Young people didn’t vote in high enough numbers. Depressing. I voted Bernie.
I didn’t. I was wrong. I’m sorry.
At least you own it. That’s progress.
Several million young prospective voters were prevented from voting by going to college in states that don’t allow out of state resident voting and not being able to vote in their home states on a Tuesday.
Add the fact that colleges are typically critically underserved when it comes to voting infrastructure, leading to a requirement to stand in line for the equivalent of a full-time job working day and it’s clear that it’s not young people being too apathetic.
It’s politicians ratfucking them almost as much as they ratfuck people of color and people of color have much better get out the vote infrastructure to counteract it than colleges do.
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First of all, that’s a gross oversimplification. Second, even if it wasn’t, you’re basically saying that college aged people who live in those states either don’t matter or there’s not enough of them to possibly effect election results.
Either way, it’s an ignorant and callous argument. Especially when you consider that college is the first chance for most people who hate living in deep red states to gtfo of there
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You JUST pointed out yourself that they wouldn’t have been able to GET an absentee ballot in and/or from certain states. Your reality-ignoring victim blaming is getting stale.
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I’m middle aged and I voted for Bernie!
I was young and voted for Bernie
Now I’m old and tired of this shit 😔
He was nowhere close to even contesting the primary. He got blown out by 3 million votes.
I didn’t say he was close. My comment is basically a wish, kind of a “what could have been” situation.
Ah ok. Thought it was another “Bernie got robbed” thing.
That’s the thing. He wasn’t going to beat Hillary in 2016. Yet, the Party took it in their hands to hurt him, give Hilary questions to debates, etc. It has always been that way. If you aren’t with the Party, you won’t get on their ballot.
Or perhaps Trump would have been the president if Sanders had been against him. Difficult to tell.
Highly unlikely.
Sanders was literally the meme about nobody caring about cspan and has a long history of refusing to condemn the particularly brutal communist regimes. And he would have been up against a notorious name caller
Who are the current brutal communist regimes that Sanders was supposed to condemn that he didn’t condemn?
As usual, the voice of sanity.
As usual, he’ll be declared unrealistic and unreasonable for it by his own lesser peers and party.
Oh, centrists and trumpists are gonna identically hate this.
Sanders is a centrist
Centre doesn’t mean both sides or in between the right and far right
No.
He’s left of center. Not anywhere near as far left as neoliberals (who are center right to right wing) and their favourite billionaire owned media outlets pretend or democratic socialist like HE pretends, but still center-left to left wing.
He’s very close to a classic European style social democrat on most issues.
You’re saying he’s left because he’s left of “insert right wing person” but left/right isn’t competitive
He’s pro-gun, pro-trans, pro-car, anti-globalization
His union supports are left but health care isn’t left or right it’s bought or not bought
Edit: I’m glad you idiots can only say he’s left of the far right
That’s a whole lot of words to say that you don’t know what the left-right political spectrum is and how it works.
He’s not pro-gun. That vote against the Brady bill people keep trying to make the definition of his current gun policy was a mistake. He’s said verbatim that he was wrong back then and would vote differently now.
Being in favor of trans rights is more on the “liberty/authoritarianism” axis but yeah, that’s very much in the liberty direction.
As for pro-car, I have no idea what you mean. Judging by his overall theme of everyone cooperating to improve things, I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that he’s not very much in favor of public mass transit playing a much larger role where practically possible.
As for globalisation, that term means a million things depending on who you ask. It can mean global cooperation to meet shared goals such as climate change amelioration, which he’s clearly in favor of, but it can also mean unlimited power for transnational corporations, which he’s very much against.
He is pro single payer healthcare, meaning he is pro tax to pay for universal healthcare. Check your facts, homie, because we don’t want to. It’s exhausting.
Centre doesn’t mean in between …
stop
Context matters. Try finishing the sentence.
Its the reality of America 🇺🇸
He is literally a democratic socialist.
I have a better idea… why doesn’t the US just stop funding murderous fascism everywhere period?
Because being morally upstanding doesn’t work when every other country is trying to outmaneuver you geopolitically.
So maintaining global dominance is so important the US just has to enable war crimes and ethnic cleansing? That’s the logic of fascism.
Oh, poor, poor US… forced to be the most prolific funder and enabler of fascist terrorism in human history because somebody else twisted it’s arm.
Poor, poor US.
Hey, Russia’s trying its hardest.
The same standards should be applied to all countries. Otherwise you’re forced into a vicious cycle of an arms race for brutal global domination. This is the purpose of international law and if anything we should be decentralizing and strengthening it.
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/11/20/us-israel-dead-last-in-following-un-charter/
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Because unstable regimes make them and the NRA a lot of profit.
See also: Russia starting an unprovoked war because of the fears that the evil west will try to geopolitics them.
See also also: fucking bullshit.Russia starting an unprovoked war
Soooo… how’s the “Unprovoked Wars Since WW2” awards looking this year? Is Russia still about a hundred wars behind the US or is it starting to catch up?
Your random whataboitism looks even more pathetic in a thread about how it’s bad and wrong to start wars even if you say the word geopolitics a lot, and how US bad actually for doing that. Don’t get me wrong, that is always pathetic, it’s just more pathetic now
Your random whataboitism
Just to be clear… which “whataboutism” are you referring to here?
You wanna go through the whole list so that you see how many of these “whataboutisms” you have to try and debunk (somehow)?
I am beginning to think I am not speaking to a person, those levels of lack of reading comprehension are very hard to achieve for a human of flesh and blood.
because people still live in the countries even if the governments are bad.
We don’t fund Israel because its people are hungry, we fund them for the military advantage it provides us and this weird thing where half the country thinks that if Jews control Israel, then blue eyed, capitalist Jesus will be able to come and swoop down and carry them away to Heaven before everyone else is smushed by God like grapes in a wine press. It’s a whole thing. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/gaza-war-evangelical-leaders-cheer-end-world-1234884151/
How about just not giving Israel aid, period?
If its capable of launching a genocidal crusade, it must be developed and stable enough to not need our fucking purse strings holding it up.
It’s a bit more complex than that A random idiot 😔
I can’t tell if you’re insulting the person to whom you replied or signing off on your own comment.
I believe they are addressing OP by their @
Ah yes thank you I see it now I fart glitter 😀
I can’t tell if you’re insulting the flatulence of the person to whom you replied or signing off on your own comment.
If you can’t tell, brother… take a deep breath and look through the clouds of glitter
Ah yes thank you I smell it now Hony Tawk 😀
Ah, thanks for pointing that out. My own lack of observation did spark a lovely thread, though. Beauty from incompetence.
If you can’t tell, brother… take a deep breath and look through the clouds
We already have laws that prohibit giving military aid to genocidal regimes.
We’re just ignoring them.
While Israel has the right to go after Hamas, Netanyahu’s right-wing extremist government does not have the right to wage almost total warfare against the Palestinian people
A nuanced view? Is that allowed?
Not in my experience 😮💨
That would be the place (the Senate) to do it, not the Presidency.
This just proves that Sanders is the biggest antisemite. /s
Word.
As a tax-paying citizen can I add we shouldn’t be using our money to blow up anyone? I mean sure let’s not support Zionist genocide in Gaza to push their “chosen people” racism. But furthermore, can we not bomb Syria or other places or support those who do?
Hmmm sorry, best we can do for you is furrowing our brow while we sign the murder checks. Hopefully that signals our virtues well enough to move on so we can focus on more pressing issues like “are drag queens Satan” and “what should senators wear to work”
Wait what if we just give the money to the drag queens, too much glitter?
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Bernard not doing so hot here in the morals. Even his own staff are condemning him for siding with the oppressors.
Seems like AOC is the only one with a backbone.
I’m also really glad Rashida Tlaib is in congress at a time like this. As a member of the Palestinian diaspora she does not equivocate in the same way other politicians have.
Sanders is unfortunately not great on this issue. He’s been opposed to supporting a ceasefire. I find that’s unforgivable given the war crimes Israel is carrying out.
Also if Sander’s really believes that conditioning aid will do anything then he’s being incredibly naive. This is Israel we’re talking about. It’s been the same ethnonationalist project for 75 years. They can not be trusted.
This would be like handing weapons to a known murderer and serial liar but only if they promise not to use them to kill people. Sure Bernie, that will totally be more effective than just not giving them the weapons in the first place.
He’s been better than Biden on it.
Sure but that’s not saying much.
He is literally parroting Biden’s exact stance here.
You mean Biden’s “Israel, you are not alone. The United States stands with you. I’m here to tell you that terrorists will not win.” stance? Cause it isn’t even close.
Do you think there could ever be a deal reached with Republicans on Ukraine aid without Israel being on the table? I seriously doubt it. Sometimes, you have to dance with the devil. Israel has enough money and weapons to exterminate Palestine whether we give them more or not. Ukraine does not.
Not giving Israel funding will not stop the genocide. Giving Ukraine funding will help stop Russia. The only way you’re going to get Republicans to agree to fund Ukraine is to agree to fund Israel. I don’t like it, but that’s just the only way to get it to work.
If you’re at the point where you’re ok with your tax dollars going toward funding and sanctioning indiscriminate genocide in Palestine in order to get around a political issue where the opposite side’s pitch is to let the Russian war and genocide against Ukraine get out of hand if you don’t bless the other genocide…then wtf are we doing? Just trading genocides to score fucking political points. Is that “compromise”? Absolutely fuck that shit. It’s possible to completely stop all funding to Israel until they stop and redirect those resources and funding to Ukraine where they’re actually fighting for their land and country. Our political fulcrum has been fucked in this country.
I’m ok with my tax dollars going to help Israel defend itself from the government of a neighboring territory that vows to destroy it and conducted a massive terrorist attack killing over 1,000 civilians
I’m even more ok with my tax dollars going toward helping the oppressed people of that territory victimized by both their own government and their neighbor, with meddling by other regional powers, and with other neighbors unwilling to help much. It would be much easier if they didn’t support a terrorist government though
And yes I’m ok with my tax dollars helping a European country defend themselves from a huge neighbor with imperial ambitions
Hamas did not kill over 1000 civilians on October 7th. Not even Israel claims this. Many of the deaths that Israel reported were active IDF soldiers. Furthermore, there is some evidence that the IDF went in guns blazing to territory Hamas had captured. As such, it’s not clear how many civilians died in the crossfire or were massacred by Hamas as Israel claims.
That’s not to say that civilians were not massacred by Hamas militants. However, it’s dangerous to simply trust Israel when they tell you that the purpose of the October 7th attacks was to murder civilians. That rhetoric is meant to paint Hamas as equivalent to ISIS and thus foreclose the possibility of any negotiation and an end to the violence.
An, right. I’m sure it was just innocent Palestinians trying to get to that concert, and it was all just a misunderstanding with Ticketmaster
What on earth are you talking about? You made a false claim about the number of civilian casualties. I pointed out why that was incorrect and why you shouldn’t just trust the IDF’s narrative. I never said Hamas militants didn’t kill civilians.
As for the concert there’s some reporting that suggests the IDF may have fired indiscriminately on Hamas and civilians alike. As I said, it remains unclear how many civilians died in the crossfire or were intentionally murdered.
Of course I’m not okay with it. But it’s that or abandon Ukraine. Should we do that?
Of course not.
Edit: What I’m saying is it’s a false dichotomy driven by our shitty political system that’s more focused on political points than actual leadership and governance.
Political realities are, um, real. There’s no false dichotomy here.
Sorry, let me rephrase: it’s a manufactured reality. I’m not denying that it’s one that’s been sold as “the real” one, but at the end of the day it’s all manufactured and presents a false dichotomy which is only “real” because the people have been told that it is such and have accepted it. We can conceive of better and more rational systems. And I would argue it’s on us to do so and to push back against these false dichotomies
Yeah, my first thought was “why give Israel any aid?”, then I realized that trying to get the US to stop giving aid entity was probably impossible. A compromise like conditional aid is better than unconditional aid. Compromises are unfortunately often necessary in politics, especially with how divided the US is and their historic support for Israel.
The problem here is that there is nobody to actually compromise with. Alongside republicans many if not most democrats also support unconditional military support for Israel.
There’s frankly no reason Bernie can’t take a principled stance against a country that’s committing war crimes with US weapons. He’s usually comfortable advocating for policies he knows won’t pass. As such, I think it’s clear he actually believes in the compromised position to begin with.
Sanders is not playing the role of a strategic negotiator here. He’s a liberal Zionist. He legitimately believes in arming Israel despite their history of and ongoing support for ethnic cleansing. He just wants Israel to be less obvious about it.
Ceasefire would be an idiot move, so it’s nice to see the rare Bernie W.
If your goal is to exterminate Palestinians then yes a ceasefire is an idiot move. Thankfully most of the world isn’t so bloodthirsty.
Hamas has explicitly said they will never stop. So if they just ignore the ceasefire, what is Israel supposed to do, just let their citizens be killed? Regardless of why hamas is doing it, it’s going to happen.
It’s almost like this is a very complicated situation that literally nobody on this website is capable of even coming close to fixing, but because life only exists as a binary now, anyone who doesn’t think identically to me is evil.
The situation isn’t complicated. Israel is an ethnostate responsible for apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and countless other war crimes. The body count is entirely one sided with many more Palestinians dead and displaced. Of course Palestinians won’t stop trying to resist through whatever means are available to them. If it weren’t Hamas it would be some other group.
The solution then is also not complicated. Israel can stop the indiscriminate bombing campaign. They could negotiate a settlement that would actually bring the hostages home. To end future conflict, they can dismantle the apartheid system.
The complicated part is getting the Israeli state to actually do that. If the US continues to provide them with the resources they need to continue oppressing Palestinians, the Israeli government will never back down.
Well, they could stop bombing innocent civilians as a start.
