FAQ
Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?
A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
ITT: people calling for revolution who will never do a damn thing about it. It’s easy to pretend violence is the answer when you’ll never participate, let alone start something.
Way too many of these chucklefucks just want to LARP as pure and radical revolutionaries. My wife and I are disabled and live on a fixed income of her disability payments and the SNAP program. If this “revolution” they want so bad does come, then we’re among the most likely to just fucking starve in the disruption. I’m also one of the people the GOP declared they want to “Eradicate from Public Life” with Project 2025.
Now, I’m not much of a Genocide Enjoyer. I think it’s one of the worst things you can do in fact. But I also don’t take too kindly to being effectively told that I specifically should just die because these wannabe revolutionaries refuse to entertain a world where we both vote for Biden to keep Trump from destroying democracy more than the GOP already has (harm reduction), AND engage in direct action to push Biden away from blindly supporting Israel.
Refusing to vote for a genocide supporter IS a form of direct activism.
Ah yes. Direct action. Famously done by checks notes Not doing something. So brave.
Not doing something would be to continue to vote for a president who is funding a genocide.
Nah, I’m good. I’ll continue to vote for Biden because he’s infinitely more likely to be swayed to stop the genocide than Trump who if I’m not mistaken has literally expressed a desire to accelerate the genocide on top of all the other heinous shit in Project 2025.
You can hate me all you want for not lining my family up to starve to death in “muh glorious revolution” or to lose our means of continuing to live when Trump tries to gut the Social Security that my family lives off of, or the SNAP benefits that feed us, or however they decide they want to eradicate my disabled trans ass from public life. Call me selfish for wanting myself and my family to continue living in addition to doing what I can to stop the genocide. I really don’t care. LARP away my dude.
How does voting for someone who is funding a genocide going to sway that person to stop funding it? It’s just illogical. There are plenty of Democrats who are active Zionists and support the war, probably a fair number are wealthy donors. The only way to sway the policy of the Democratic party is to threaten to their power.
I don’t think you’re selfish, and I don’t hate you lol, I just think you’re not seeing the enormous potential of forming a leftist voting coalition. Imagine how amazing it would be if the Democratic Party was trying to cater to the votes of leftists, and not to “moderates” who think that an openly white nationalist candidate is a viable potential option.
That would be fantastic, I’d love it if the Democrats would stop doing what they’ve been doing the last 30+ years of punching left and chasing the “Moderates” rightward. But let’s think about this logically for a minute. What are the possible outcomes of what you’re proposing?
- Coalition Victory. We install an actual leftist in the White House. Fantastic. No more Genocide. We have a little socialism as a treat maybe? No notes. I love it. But that means we have right now about 7 months to produce or align behind a 3rd party candidate, one who likely won’t be allowed on the ballot in several states, Then that candidate has to get enough votes to beat BOTH Biden and Trump meaning they basically have to pull at least like 18% of the vote from both sides in enough states to win the Electoral College.
- Trump Victory. Considerably less fantastic. Democrats blame the Leftists for Biden’s loss as usual. Okay, we threatened their power and now maybe we can convince them that they need us to win in 2028 rather than them moving even further right as they have since Clinton. But meanwhile we still haven’t stopped the Genocide, Donnie’s probably gonna attempt to speedrun it in fact, we’ve got Project 2025 to worry about. I don’t know about you, but I don’t think Gaza’s going to last until 2028.
- Biden Victory. Not as bad as Trump winning. Genocide is still happening in Gaza, unlike Trump he at least might be able to be convinced to end the genocide in a sense other than the Completionist one. Only now we’ve proven to the Democrats that they don’t need the leftists at all actually and they’re free to move as far right as they wish. So maybe we even lose that.
Maybe we get incredibly lucky and Trump gets screwed over by these prosecutions and splits the GOP thus lowering the threshold for us to get an actual Leftist in? I’m not sure we can count on it with how the Judiciary is bending over backwards to try to delay these prosecutions until the election where presumably they’d all “have to get put on hold because it’s looks bad to be putting a presidential candidate on trial.” Y’know, that old chestnut.
Realistically, we have to reckon with the fact that First Past the Post Winner Take All Voting and the Electoral College screws us here. There’s a reason these systems mathematically tend towards a 2 party system. It’s incredibly frustratingly difficult, nigh on mathematically impossible to break through the tendency for Strategic Voting that this system breeds. It’s the Prisoner’s Dilemma, but on a massive scale. A scale where we can only afford what, maybe a hundred thousand people getting scared and bailing on the plan at most for us all to get the worst possible outcome?
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Not in America, but I’m trans and have a number of trans friends in the states who are really scared right now. I live in Australia and have participated in pro-Palestine protests (if that’s who you’re implying with that). I loathe Biden, I think he’s a shitty old white dude, and I wish y’all could do better. But if protesting against Biden allows Trump to be elected, then there WILL be far worse consequences, both domestically and abroad. Thousands of trans people will lose their lives, and countless more will lose access to life-saving care. He will likely cut off support to Ukraine considering how he’s ingratiated himself to Putin before. He hasn’t indicated he’d stop supporting Israel either.
But if protesting against Biden allows Trump to be elected, then there WILL be far worse consequences
That’s 100% on Biden for being a legit protest target, not on the individuals with a moral compass who are pointing out his issues.
If we don’t want our non-fascist option to be protested against because it means they lose then there should be a better choice available
I’m sorry, but I genuinely think that’s reductive and stupid. In Australia, I get to have a choice. And every time I’ve voted, I exercised that choice to put someone other than our Democrats equivalent first on my ballot. Knowing my vote would still flow to them before electing someone who would rather see me dead. You don’t get to have that choice, and you can blame your founding father’s and the various people in control of your government since for that fact. But if you choose not to vote because Biden isn’t good enough, you are making a conscious choice towards fascism.
God. I called it in June 2016 and I’m calling it again now. Y’all are going to end up with Trump again because of people like you. And it’s going to fucking suck to be an Aussie online again for four years. Probably bloody longer.
Edit: It’s not even like 2016 where some people were sounding warning bells that Trump was going to be fascist. He’s been your president before this time around. You have seen what he is capable of, watched as he interfered with the peaceful transfer of power. If he takes office again, from my perspective, it will be the end of democracy in your country. You won’t get that choice again. At least not for a while and not without a lot of suffering first.
you are making a conscious choice towards fascism.
It’s fun to watch people write paragraphs of shit acting like they’ve got a point and then say something this objectively stupid because they don’t actually know what they’re on about.
I live in California, if I chose to not vote I’m making a conscious choice to support Biden, as that is who my states electoral votes are going to. If I chose to vote for any third party it’s the same outcome. Only if I explicitly vote for Trump (or another potential fascist) am I actually supporting fascism
But what if too many of you Californians think that and Biden loses?!
I can assure you that’s not happening here, though I’ve seen so many people online try to fear monger that it might. If t actually were a threat I’d get in lock-step for Biden to prevent fascism, but it’s not so I won’t.
if enough Californians opposed genocide to make it so that Biden didn’t get the California electoral votes, imagine the impact. seriously. it would be unprecedented.
Well too bad. This is what we got. Either join the rest of us in reality or become yet another person helping fascists seize power.
helping fascists seize power.
See my other comment, I’m not doing that at all.
Stay mad, it’s funny
What group of voters would be exterminated under Biden?
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Then it should be easy for every voter to call for harm reduction.
That’s a pretty selfish thing to say. To borrow from the stupid metaphor, I don’t want the driver to continue to run people over on the way to the ice cream parlor
The route to the cliff would run over way more people, and attempting to wrest control of a speeding bus is liable to hit even more. Why not vote for the ice cream place and make the avoidance of collisions a key priority? That seems like a safer option for everyone.
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As if Trump wouldn’t exterminate them harder. With just the choice between these 2 candidates, I vote for the lesser genocider and then apply as much pressure as possible to lower that genocidey-ness even more. Short of a revolution, it’s the best we can do.
And then they think they’ll be part of the vanguard when the power vacuum opens up, and will give way to a glorious socialist utopia. Guess what, turbo, you’ll be up against that wall too, and it’s just going to be roving gangs of authoritarians.
Even if you assume those LARPers are willing to sacrifice themselves in bloody revolution for the good of the common folk…
Who do you think suffers most when civil war disrupts supply chains, essential services, and the legal system?
It’s the dang common folk they’re supposedly dying to protect!
As easy as it is to vote, its even easier to whine about why not doing it is better(?) Maybe?
Then they come at u like theyre so very superior for not voting. Like theyre going to start a revolution by yelling at the people supposedly closest to them in ideology. Bc, clearly, voting is only done by libs, so if u advocate for voting ur a superlib. Then theyll simp for china or russia, and act like even neoliberal countries dont have leftist parties attempting to participate in the government theyre so keen on making u forsake.
Almost like theres a vested interest in there… somewhere…
My favorite morons ITT:
”Both options are cliffs!”
Yeah because the guy promising to end democracy and bring about Christian nationalism is exactly the same as the moderate we have now. I hope you’re getting paid to be that stupid.
”I won’t vote to support genocide!”
At the end of the day someone becomes president, and spoiler alert the other option is still worse. It’s cute you think your principles are more important than the safety and security of at-risk groups domestically (and frankly abroad as well). Short-sighted and idiotic.
”We might not even get ice cream!”
Okay well organize and protest that after we’ve avoided the cliff.
”Haha Americans are stupid for the entrenched political system that they find themselves in”
Hope you enjoy your five minutes of smugness, because a Christian nationalist USA doesn’t benefit anyone in the world in the long run.
a lot of the individuals ITT are here in good faith i believe. i’m more trying to get meaningful change to happen than sow discord by calling them morons.
You, i like you
c:
Ive gotten righty whities to agree with me on all sorts of wild leftist ideas, its about finding the angle and humanizing the problem.
i feel like sometimes people forget the little username in their phone represents a living breathing life that may or may not have had breakfast this morning :(
Well… with the amount of bots confirmed to be out there… and some of those living breathing lives are out to convince Americans that what they actually want to do is hand Dr. Fascismo the presidency by not voting or protest voting third party.
Ha, I think at least 70% of Internet arguments are caused by hangryness!
yes and the other 30% are caused by people being bags of flesh with bones and sickness inside
Fair
I hear you and I appreciate what you’re trying to do here, though I am skeptical that these people actually are coming here in good faith.
”Both options are cliffs!”
But they are though.
The cliff drivers aren’t getting off the bus, even if we vote them down this time, if we don’t change the system that allows them equal opportunity to drive us off a cliff they will eventually force it off the cliff.
Biden has long supported the system that allows it, prides himself on being able to find a middle ground with them, and though he talks about not going over the cliff has no long term plan for dealing with those that do, because again he believes in the system that allows them to want to drive off the cliff.
I believe I’ve stretched this metaphor about as far as it will go, but I’m going to try stretching it further.
There are actually two cliffs, fascism and climate change, even if we pull the bus away from one cliff we’ve still got the other in front of us and basically no one is even pretending to deal with that.
And to leave the broken bus scenario, I’m just going to say if you believe that a trump win will destroy American democracy, that we can’t defeat his corrupt, senile version of fascism then the next republican demagogue will have no problems.
That Christian Nationalist USA is already present. It’s emboldening is inevitable due to the inaction from Democrats and especially Biden: the alleged “moderate” president.
Biden is also actively arming a genocide in Gaza. A move I would say is extremely far from moderate in any position. Trump is a horrible choice for president. It was true in 2016 and it’s true now. But if Biden refuses to do even the barest of minimums to defeat him in an election what does that say about Biden?
So sure, call it smugness, call it idiotic or whatever bullshit; continue to vilify those tired of voting for bullshit candidates and inaction. I’m sure that will help prove your point; as Biden does literally nothing to combat any of increasingly tense situations rising in the US under his tenure.
The problem is that “moderates” are very conservative and fascist-leaning as well. The Biden administration is still funding genocide, still turning away asylum-seeking migrants, hell Biden hasn’t even followed through on releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana convictions.
And people ARE protesting now, but not as much as under Trump, and these things haven’t changed. Biden allows barely engaged liberals to think everything is okay, but Biden is still AWFUL he just has better optics to liberals.
you can do so much more to defeat the reactionaries by visiting:
- a gym
- a shooting range
- a library
- your local revolutionary organization’s meeting
than a polling station
It’s so weird to see it framed as an either/or. Voting is the absolute bare minimum you can do to participate. So yeah go vote, and also organize your friends and network with like minded people around you and work towards the change you want. I doubt any of the ideologically pure abstainers here have even ever turned out to vote much less actually worked on a campaign.
Lemme tell you a story. In the last parliamentary election in Poland in October we had a record high turnout of 73% or so. This only emboldened the liberals and the pseudo-left to introduce lower health insurance contributions for the capitalists and tax breaks for IT sector but lift the food VAT cancellation despite some product categories still being affected by an inflation rate of up to 20% and gas and electricity prices freeze. Which is actually being justified by the “socdem” ruling triumvirate partner instead of them standing against it. But ig for them idpol matters much more than standing for poor people. Then they’re fucking surprised they vote for social conservatives. Just like many Trump voters who are not right-wing extremists but just disillusioned proletarians with false consciousness.
Recently state TV invited fucking landlords to discuss how to deal with non-paying tenants to a morning TV. On the contrary, the so hated social conservative PiS government has at least managed to introduce a vacant property tax. Now under the glorious liberal regime we can expect the rent to still gobble up more than a half of a large part of the population’s salary. Yay! So progressive, so European, so democratic! 🥰🎉✌️
Women’s rights were the hallmark of their campaign, but we still have one of the most barbaric laws regarding abortion and emergency contraception access in Europe due to the centre-right coalition partner torpedoing any change in this respect – hey, how is doing anything about Roe v. Wade being overturned going?
Also militarism. Both of them (Biden and Trump) will waste massive amounts of taxpayer and printed money on producing fucking scrap metal death machines. But Biden is actually more hawkish. In Poland we are already spending 4% of our GDP (twice the NATO target!) on that and in the past few years it increased by like 260%. All of this despite Russia actually virtually not increasing it’s military spending and incessant media reports about how they are using 50 year old equipment in Ukraine.
So many people fell totally duped in Poland right now, and rightly so. Now the hope lies in the streets, in the radicalization of women’s protests and gathering storm for a strike wave. Government of the rich, for the rich won’t do shit for the working class unless they feel fear. Luckily the farmers’ protests have shown the way to go.
People frame it as an either/or because the reality is that voting doesn’t hold the personal power you think it does.
Due to how our elections work your vote just might be worthless. Add on all of the other issues at hand, and the prospective of voting is absolutely depressing for some of us.
This still doesn’t really make it an either/or situation, but one situation gives you the ability to potentially make a positive difference in the world, whereas the other, not so much.
This analogy is so absurd. Like if you have a vote on driving off a cliff, the answer is not to treat the vote as legitimate. The answer is to attempt to stop the bus by any means necessary. Pry open the engine panel and chuck a wrench in the gears, cut the fuel line, break the shifter lever, anything, just get off the fucking bus. Neither driver should be trusted.
EDIT: I am sick of hearing “WHY WON’T YOU VOTE THO”
First of all, I already said this:
The only reason to vote for the less-immediate cliff driver is to give you more time to stop the bus.
That’s the other problem with this post: the non-voter is a strawman. Most people with real critiques of the bus vote too because they understand this. Voting barely matters for the most part but you may as well do it. Most people yelling about “don’t vote it’s pointless” are like 15 years old doing baby’s first radical politics.
I just don’t understand why every time we criticise the bus we have to deal with loads of people yelling about why we don’t take the voting more seriously, as if who we vote for is the bigger issue than the fact that we’re stuck on a careening death machine with a bunch of people calmly debating how fast we should all die.
I think the answer to this is: so, what are you doing to stop the bus from going over the cliff that’s better than voting? And can’t you do both of them?
Because usually people aren’t doing much else. Especially anything effective. They’re just not voting.
This comment is why you’re getting this spiel, because you need to understand something:
They’re just not voting.
The people who don’t vote are usually the most disenfranchised people, living paycheck to paycheck, stuck in survival mode, and they don’t care who’s in charge because they’ve noticed through hard lessons that they keep getting screwed no matter what. Also often they can’t vote because they can’t get off work. They’re not terminally online yelling at people not to vote, those are probably mostly kids doing baby’s first radical politics.
The sad reality is that electoral politics has a cold calculus to it where they’ve got the populace cut into rough thirds. About a third are susceptible to full on fascist propaganda and cannot currently be reached. Another third vote centre-left because they usually understand it’s their only reasonable vote. Very few of them are actively engaged because it is a deeply disempowering system. Another third are who I mentioned.
That’s not going to change just because you correctly debated with me about voting. I vote as far left as I meaningfully can, I just don’t think it really matters and I think both psychologically and practically the faster people learn that the better.
I think understanding reality is much more important, and I think the fact that this insane bus analogy gets accepted paints a grim picture of how fucked up the electoral system really is. I also think it’s wrong about the stakes - it’s not cliff or icecream. It’s cliff or slower cliff. Vote for the slower cliff, but don’t ever mistake the drivers for your friends. You are voting for your preferred enemy.
I don’t think the third are the ones who have power fantasies about them not voting but rather just people who don’t bother. So they’re not the ones I was talking about.
I’m talking about the ones who are so proud of their principled take of not voting and telling others how that doesn’t change the system and how the actual change happens through other means. And then the other means they are doing are maybe some complaints on social media, which is just lol.
I’m talking about the ones who are so proud of their principled take of not voting and telling others how that doesn’t change the system and how the actual change happens through other means. And then the other means they are doing are maybe some complaints on social media, which is just lol.
I mean, who are these people, though? I’ll take your word for it, but I haven’t really seen anyone IRL actually advocating for this as a strategy, and I haven’t seen anyone legitimately advocate for it in a meaningful way, like, in a way that actually matters. The most I’ve seen to that effect is like, protest votes from people in california, which, sure, whatever, doesn’t really end up mattering because their district is still going to overwhelmingly be blue. I haven’t seen anyone legitimately advocate for just like “nah I don’t wanna vote” as a legitimate strategy. The most solid stance I’ve seen people take is “I dunno if it matters, I would rather talk about local outreach” or whatever whatever.
I also don’t understand why the consistent instinct against voter apathy is just like. This, always, it’s always like, “oh you need to vote or else we’ll all get annihilated by freiza’s death ball” or like “you have to vote because not voting is for bitches” type stuff. I have very rarely seen the discussion go from like, this abstract talk to more concrete oh what has joe biden done positively, what might trump do very poorly, type of stuff, much less have I ever seen talk of actual interesting electoral politics about how people should vote, or who’s vote matters where, or whatever.
I dunno. It’s just annoying, I’ve seen this argument play in the abstract probably hundreds of time at this point, straight up, no joke, and also in real life. That’s only me counting this election season, too, and not the last 3-4 elections where basically the same set of conversations occurred.
I don’t know how you are on Lemmy without seeing the sort of people who advocate not voting and instead of doing something else to change the system. They’re everywhere. I’m betting even in this comment section.
You seem to be confusing those who genuinely don’t care to vote and those who aren’t voting because they’re totally changing the system some other way (lol). Two different groups. And I’m only talking about the second
Yeah, I mean, I don’t think the two groups are that dissimilar. I think both groups are also probably also fine with voting. I just haven’t seen anyone who actually thinks that voting is bad, I think at most I’ve seen people who think it’s a waste of time, or useless, maybe, but it’s kind of hard to make a convincing argument, generally, that taking say the, you know, at most like 7-8 hours to vote is a completely unjustifiable waste of time. That’d be a pretty extreme example and I don’t expect someone voting in that circumstance would realistically change anything, though, it’s more probable that someone could probably vote in like, just around an hour.
My point is more just that these people aren’t like, illogical ingrates, I guess. I dunno. I see both sides of this issue, I think people are mostly talking past each other and taking out mutual aggression because they don’t really have any other way to feel like they’re doing anything politically productive. Like in this thread the most disagreement I’ve seen is people who are like “Joe Biden isn’t ice cream!”. That’s not really a real disagreement with the core point being made, it’s like, a disagreement with the framing of the issue.
My other point, I guess, is that talking about these things in the abstract is a pretty quick way to get everyone pissed off. It sort of, “gets to the heart of the disagreement”, right, in terms of, oh, here’s where our worldviews diverge, but it doesn’t really do any of the work of convincing someone. I think in this case it’s a pretty narrow gap, to convince someone, it doesn’t seem like there’s that big of a divide. Anyone given to like, “Oh joe biden sucks I wish I could vote for someone more left wing” is probably going to mostly agree with everything else you might say.
Instead of like this argument in the abstract, it would probably have a higher success rate to argue about like, the NLRB not sucking right now, or the infrastructure bill and the amtrack stuff, or the student loan forgiveness, stuff like that, actual policies, and then I’d imagine people arguing the opposite would be like “oh well none of that stuff is really extreme at all or as extreme as we wanted”, or basically “too little too late”, and then, you know, I mean I’ve never seen anyone do this, but I think at that point you’d just have to like, give them the point of voting to maintain from a backslide, vs revolutionary action which helps actually make progress. Both are somewhat important and also somewhat contextual.
Like this whole thing is just a “dual power” problem, I guess. I dunno, I just find it really grating to like read through thread after thread of this same exact discourse happening when nobody’s goals are actually mutually exclusive, you know? It’s like neoliberal identity politics taken to the extreme, where everyone identifies as a revolutionary or as a reformist and everyone assumes and argues their own position instead of like just acknowledging their similarities and doing something about their common goals. It gives me serious COINTELPRO handbook vibes.
I think you are over prescribing power to a small handful of loud and proud voices because it’s an easier scapegoat to say they are the reason for the issues with voting.
I didn’t really define how big of a group they were or anything. I just find them annoying.
But maaaan, if we all, like, protest vote, they’ll have to change the system because they, like, knew what it meant when we chose to not participate in their broken system, man.
bro. do both.
cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank.
but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive.
“harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
in response to your edit:
“the non-voter is a strawman.”
objectively false. in the 2020 election more eligible US voters turned out than any election in recent history, and still those who did not vote outnumbered those who voted for the winner. you are saying falsehoods.
Bless you for this comment.
How many commenters here have even tried to figure out how ‘busses’ (the electoral process) work and find a way to get involved?
Spend 5 hours a week (yes, you can find the time, deduct it from your screen time!) and you could basically take over your local party committee. That alone won’t change the national trend, but you might just be able to influence a city council or school board race.
Local races hinge on a handful of votes very often. In our area, we managed to keep two anti-LGBTQ+ candidates off the school board last election. This impacts the lives of literally thousands of youth and their families and it hinged on about 80 votes. Vote, yes, but at least skim the Chilton manual for your bus in between elections. It really does matter
If it’s so easy have to actually tried giving time to a campaign and having it win and change your local policy?
Have you done what you preach?
I have tried. The super easy barely an effort easy win of showing up and supported by my picks… Didn’t work. Like at all. The DNC in fact even refused to acknowledge half my candidates even though they had more grassroots support, and then funded former Republicans. In a blue city, they still thought the conservative options were better candidates. And lost. We all lost. But sure we held back some morons from school board. But stopping a couple people from getting elected is way different than getting policy makers you want in.
I agree that people need to be doing things but thinking a few hours and shouting at people to vote blue will do anything against the bigger systemic issues and flaws of the operating class of the DNC being happy to be useless then you are far more comfortable in your life than people like me.
The people who don’t vote are usually the most disenfranchised people, living paycheck to paycheck, stuck in survival mode, and they don’t care who’s in charge because they’ve noticed through hard lessons that they keep getting screwed no matter what. Also often they can’t vote because they can’t get off work. They’re not terminally online yelling at people not to vote, those are probably mostly kids doing baby’s first radical politics.
The sad reality is that electoral politics has a cold calculus to it where they’ve got the populace cut into rough thirds. About a third are susceptible to full on fascist propaganda and cannot currently be reached. Another third vote centre-left because they usually understand it’s their only reasonable vote. Very few of them are actively engaged because it is a deeply disempowering system. Another third are who I mentioned.
That’s not going to change just because you correctly debated with me about voting. I vote as far left as I meaningfully can, I just don’t think it really matters and I think both psychologically and practically the faster people learn that the better.
I think understanding reality is much more important, and I think the fact that this insane bus analogy gets accepted paints a grim picture of how fucked up the electoral system really is. I also think it’s wrong about the stakes - it’s not cliff or icecream. It’s cliff or slower cliff. Vote for the slower cliff, but don’t ever mistake the drivers for your friends. You are voting for your preferred enemy.
Yeah. I don’t envy nor blame those who vote for the biggest crash because they think their suffering will be over without having considered the suffering that will just be new.
People often just want change and those that don’t are just comfortable where they are. The slow route might be nicer for them but and even for others in the long run, but it doesn’t matter what they want change will have to come, they can just be proactive about it or let it be out of their control and in the hands of those that just want it to stop.
I think also people get frustrated by voting because it pretends to give them political power but what they get is almost no influence over their actual lives. I think it drives people a little bit crazy, because they actually believe this is the best they can do.
That’s why I tell people that they can vote but they need to understand that real change comes from direct action, so they shouldn’t put so much emotional energy into the vote. They should put their energy where it matters.
My logic is what about vote and pry the bus apart? If you have the option to might as well go for it as part of the ‘any means necessary’, a tool is a tool.
I don’t know why everytime I try to say that we should stop this bus half the passengers jump up and yell “BUT WHY WOULDN’T YOU VOTE”.
I never said that. I said the vote is illegitimate and we need to stop the bus. I still vote.
stop the bus != don’t vote
In Australia we only have two options in the lower house. One of them is pretty close to driving off a cliff.
Things could always be better (I personally find with their recent car emissions legislation a bit weak) but our current government is doing OK.
Our current government is mediocre as shit and does nothing to fix anything. We take 5 steps towards the edge of the cliff each time Liberal get in and two steps forward and half a step back when Labor do. The end result is we’re going over the cliff, just in slow motion.
Same as the centre-left options all over the world. They are little more than controlled opposition designed to give the illusion of choice, but never actually challenge the status quo.
Alright, so what do you do to overthrow the system then? Nothing, that’s right. Screw you.
Oh okay, sorry, I had a whole political activist strategy that takes local action and builds on that to make people’s lives better and eventually put serious pressure on the overarching system, but since you said “nothing”, I guess the answer is “nothing”.
I mean you’re wrong, but you don’t sound like you want to hear the real answer.
Wouldn’t cutting the brake lines of a moving bus be really dangerous? Why not vote for ice cream, then sabotage the bus while it’s parked? At least the ice cream place has food, shelter, and a bathroom.
*brake
Also:
cut the fuel line
You might want to brush up on your mechanics knowledge. Cutting a fuel line will kill an engine fast.
And I never said not to vote. This idea that anyone trying to criticise the system is saying not to vote is a strawman. I literally said:
The only reason to vote for the less-immediate cliff driver is to give you more time to stop the bus.
The thing is, doing that is a great way to lose credibility. You’re basically sinking to the same level as the fascists.
Anti fascist sabotage is bad because violence, hmm 🧐
As long as you don’t physically harm people, sabotage all the fascists you want. Just remember to vote.
I was very careful to avoid actual violence in my language. You were the one that equated it to fascism, which I assume you mean is the cliff driver.
Of course stopping the bus isn’t violent, and is not at all equivalent to the cliff driver.
So you’re saying that you would condemn the killing of Donald Trump if he gets into power and enacts his dictature?
I’m the smash the bus person, and I actually would. The truth is he’s only marginally worse than Joe in most of the ways that matter, and assassinations always lead to much worse reactions. Trump isn’t the problem, the apparatus that enables him is.
The solution is to build alternatives that remove people’s dependence on the state and capital, so the president matters less. That’s what I mean by smashing the bus. I never said to kill the driver, because his mates will kill you and stay in control.
Oh because of the violence? Driving off a cliff is also violent behaviour, and with the bus as it is the cliff is inevitable, because the cliff drivers will always get back in. Also, the other guy isn’t the icecream guy. He’s the guy who promised to stop for icecream but doesn’t want to tell you if or how fast he plans to drive off the cliff. He’s open to debate on the issue, but he has a lot cliff driving friends and they often cast the deciding vote in cliff driving matters.
They’re both getting us off the cliff, just one is being more coy and circumspect than the other.
The only reason to vote for the less-immediate cliff driver is to give you more time to stop the bus.
Let me know when you start the violence. It’s easy as fuck to sit behind your iphone calling others to die.
Coooool comeback.
Even easier to sit behind your iPhone telling people to vote even though it will never solve our problems.
And my theory of change is not actually violent - you’ll notice I didn’t advocate hurting anyone, just dismantling the machinery of violence. The other person called it equal to fascism, which I assume they equate to the cliff driver, so I took their assumption of violence as given, which I shouldn’t have. Stopping the bus is infinitely preferrable to driving it off the cliff.
Except, it’s not an attempt to end democracy, as fascism is.
disagree
Extremism is how you start a civil war…
damn, people really can’t read, huh?
I think it’s selective misunderstanding. Dealing with the knowledge that voting won’t really achieve much is super uncomfortable, so they’d rather pretend that you said “don’t vote” so they don’t have to think about what you really said.
Another way is pretending that you don’t actually mean it. Stopping the bus seems impossible to them, so they assume you must not actually be doing anything about it, but that’s wrong too. It’s just most people think of revolution in terms of storming the Bastille or whatever, they don’t realise that most of the work is constant, basic, on the ground, building mutual aid networks, because in a world where people starve because they don’t have enough money, feeding people is a radical act.
If I have to read one more both sides are terrible “take” that encourages voter apathy I’m going to lose my mind. Vote, people I don’t care who you vote for but you have to vote because apathy is how we get fascism.
Do something rather than just throwing a piss fit and encouraging others to do nothing.
Vote, people I don’t care who you vote for but you have to vote because apathy is how we get fascism.
Nervous German laughter
We will probably get fascism with our next federal state’s election, since AFD is projected to win by far more votes than any other party. Whelp.
I’ve met a young mom who, while not voting for AFD itself, does hope they will win the election because “then the voters will finally get heard and we also get to see what the party actually wants to implement, otherwise it’s just big talk but it’s interesting to see what they would do once they are in power.” …Can we not find out please? I hope it would just be big talk but I really don’t care to find out. I am superwhite but I don’t have a German passport and I don’t want to know.
But back to the actual topic, I absolutely agree with you and not voting is always, always a bad idea. Hell, not two weeks ago I went to Berlin, paid for a hotel and stood in a long line to vote for the rigged elections in Russia. I know my voice will not be heard and it still felt imperative. Please, please go vote if you’re in the USA ( - or anywhere where your voice will actually at least be counted). I hate to say it but our future also depends on what your country decides.
Oh yeah it’s not foolproof you absolutely still can have people vote against their interests but encouraging apathy doesn’t fix that
I guess it depends on the country, but here in France, our last two presidential elections were about choosing how fast fascism would come.
Not very versed in French politics but I imagine the fight to maintain democracy is difficult regardless of country. No matter how bad the choice gets though, not making it isn’t the answer.
Tell the DNC to pick somebody else?
Burn both parties to the ground and bar them all from holding office ever again.
At least this would be doing something, you have my support.
I’ll believe it when I see it… otherwise the way it looks atm is that the dems want trump lol…
Both texts in screenshot are agruments against apathy
This was a response to the comments.
D- does that mean youve still a mind? C-c- could we m-maybe sh-share?
Cuz I feel like itd come in handy when the foreign shills show up to tell me all about why the problem you just described is ackswallee not here on lemmy at all… i guess we just that special.
Good to see the sane comments up top, but still.
This is a long established problem with FPTP voting (FPTP = First Past The Post: One voter = one vote). You don’t really get to vote for your choice candidate, rather you vote against the worst of the two popular candidates by voting for the other guy.
Now there are plenty of election reform solutions, but in the US, both parties are weakened by the people having more choice, so neither party is willing to back amendments to the Constitution of the United States that would install a more public serving voting system.
This also means, according to CIA analysts who have studied nations on the brink and how they can avoid civil war, the US is very likely to see a civil war in its near future (next decade). But then we’re also likely to see elections neutered anyway, so that the Republican party controls all elected positions (and appointed ones after that). And then local genocides can get underway.
So yes, if you’re voting to make a point (other than you want the Heritage Foundation’s Project 2025 to play out or want to delay it for a while) the point won’t be heard. In fact, the Republicans and their foreign national propaganda machine supporters are probably very glad you’re willing to withhold blue votes to make a point. It won’t make that point, but they’re glad for you for trying.
i don’t disagree but this is also a long established problem with people not showing up to vote, so jot that down.
Taking a wild guess here, I suspect people not voting comes from a number of addressable causes. Here in the States, we are far more enamored with capitalism than Democracy, and the way we regard our civic duties (e.g. trying to get out of jury duty, mostly due to the hardship it would cause by skipping work without pay). We work our labor class so hard they are too exhausted to parent, cook or engage in health activities, much less engage in civics. It doesn’t help that this is exactly how our plutocratic masters want it.
After we address allowing people the time to think about what they want from government, and voting accordingly, then we can start looking into giving the people actual agency in their destinies, toward which election reform is only one front.
But all this is to say the United States doesn’t really try very hard to get the people to engage in civics. Rather, it would really prefer that we lie down and let ourselves be ruled by the wealthy according to their ideals and business interests. That, of course, brings us back to the same problems feudalism has: one Joffrey or Caligula or John of England / Richard II can bring to ruin all that a dozen prior generations have built up. Even Charles III is living up to the traditional standards of monarchy, and the UK has a parliament and a constitution with which to keep his shenanigans in check. (Parliament is up to its own shenanigans to turn the UK hardline fascist, but that’s another discussion.)
In elementary school government and western civilization class, we learn that we vote so that the government does what we want it to. But we quickly learn (sometimes as soon as intermediate or high-school) that our agency in selecting our government is very, very limited, and historian careers have been built on the corruption of government into an oligarchy with trivial democratic features.
Except right now, those trivial democratic features are the last line of defense between the two party state and a one-party autocracy. It’s a state of affairs that shows not only did we take a wrong turn, but we’re on a fast train to somewhere we never should have gone. Curiously, the never-Trump conservatives have been pouring billions into the proverbial railroad that lead us to Trump and the next line of Musolinni-wannabe strongman dictators. They didn’t just buy the ticket, but laid the rails.
What do you say to the DNC for dropping the ball this hard?
As much as you really fucking hate to hear it: Biden won both his primaries handedly. The only way Bernie had a shot is if they clowncarred it too long like the Republican nomination that led to Trump. The DNC did not drop the ball, the American voters chose Biden.
The Democratic Party chose Biden, what was a tactical choice. The DNC uses FPTP for its primary as well (then has a list of 2000 principal party members whose votes are given additional weight. The DNC is a far right coalition party that still is guided by the interests of its monied contributors. But since the 1980s we’ve only been allowed to choose between them and the Christian Nationalist monsters.
Even after Occasio-Cortez won her primary, the DNC and DCCC changed their policy to prevent young upstarts like her from pushing aside establishment Democrat candidates. (Some of those policy changes were reversed due to pressure, but still the Democratic party is not interested in serving the public.)
How do we get a public-serving government? Dunno. Some say supporting our community mutual-aid organizations will help. (It will, actually) but in more contentious states law enforcement are looking for ways to harass and arrest mutual aid organizations, even for doing benign things like feeding the homeless. Civil war will lose the plot quickly, and will end up (typically) in a string of dictatorships, each overthrown by the next until everyone is related to casualties of war and are just plum tired of fighting, and we might get a democratic election out of it if we can fend off all the foreign influencers trying to pressure their puppets into power.
There are a few active anarcho-communist coalitions out there doing their thing, but they are continuously attacked by plutocrat financed militants and mischief-makers looking to make an example of them much like FBI’s assassination campaign on the Black Panthers. We humans may just be too easily tempted by corruption to create a functional public-serving government that doesn’t depend on a labor caste. (But do please keep working on it!)
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Wrong. Democrats consistently support & pass RCV, while Republicans repeal & ban it. If you want RCV, you need to support Dems in the meantime.
And RCV (ranked choice voting) isn’t really that much better. It has potential to be better if everyone voted honestly, but voting is a game.
STAR (score then automatic runoff) is the best we can feasibly achieve. It’s easy to teach and our current voting systems can account for this with little to no update (unlike RCV). Please look into star and push for this locally, then we can get this on a state by state basis.
What is your source for the CIA analysts/brink of civil war claim?
A PBS interview of retired analysts who’d spent their life studying regions of civil unrest and the conditions that lead to civil war. It was since the Biden administration began so it shouldn’t be too hard to hunt down.
As for the neutered elections, this had been part of the Republican project REDMAP, but is laid out in the Heritage Foundation Project 2025 as well.
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Sounds like something a cliff hater would say.
We’ll all be rich at the bottom of the canyon.
The wealth will trickle down!
You’ll all realize your potential!
you mean potential energy? the one that goes downhill?
The four people vote and you still drive off a cliff due to gerrymandering
Voting metaphors that don’t have people dying in either option are disingenuous imo. Like I understand the concept of harm reduction to a point, but let’s not pretend one of the options is something as innocent as “getting ice cream”.
absolutely agree. the situation is closer to driving into the grand canyon versus into the sun.
nevertheless i do think the intended rhetorical effect of the post has value, esp for those who don’t intend to vote at all.
I hear you. I think many people who aren’t intending to vote do understand the situation but just have a different moral take. Like, sure, driving the bus into a brick wall may save some lives compared to driving it off a cliff. But for the people that’d die in the wall option, they’re still dead either way. Shouldn’t we at least try to stop the bus from crashing at all, as unrealistic as that may be?
i highly recommend doing both, organize and vote
I say organize, vote uncommitted in the primary if you can, and do what you have to in November. But yes, agreed.
We didn’t have that option in the Ohio primary so I just left that space blank and voted down-ticket.
Spoken like a proper leftist. Its funny how the lemmy trolls pretend ither countries dont gave anarchist or communist parties trying to participate in the neoliberal politics as is. Bc its beneficial to leftist causes if the people youre trying to sway, cooperate with, create a new way with, you know, actually can afford to do all those things.
Does anyone here realize how we’re arguing whether the easiest action u can take is praxis? No one says dont do the other stuff.
yeah it’s more like driving into a bush versus driving into an active volcano. The bush gives you at least a 30% chance to survive.
Liberalism is driving off a cliff and killing everyone because a third of people voted to do it.
There are 9 people on the bus. Five people vote to get shit burgers even though no one wants that, just because they think it will save them from the 3 people who vote to drive off the cliff. One person obstains. Two of the three people hijack the bus and drive off the cliff. Four of the five people blame the person who obstained as they drive off the cliff.
Fascists don’t care if they win or lose. Voting can’t save you once you’ve reached this point. You don’t have slightly high blood pressure that you can treat by eating right. You have cancer. You fight the cancer with everything you have or you die.
And not-voting doesn’t mean the bus stays put.
It’s going somewhere.
A dilemma doesn’t go away just because you don’t like the options.
except the options are: 1- going off a cliff and 2- going off a cliff
I’ll take the smaller cliff
both will kill you instantly on impact tho
Then I’d vote for the bigger cliff, just to be sure
I think that’s called “accelerationism”. Though that might be when you tell the driver to go faster
I’d punch the driver and slam on the brakes but to each their own
I’d just take my teleport machine and zvoom out of there
Going off a cliff or going off a cliff but they’ll put some nice tunes on the radio while we die.
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Have fun sailing off the cliff.
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I’m German. I really hope you guys don’t vote for the fascist this time, but seeing comments like yours make me extremely happy that my partner emigrated from the US instead of still being there.
The box is empty, isn’t it?
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Wouldn’t expect a Trumper to. Did I say Trumper? I wanted to say ‘fascist enabling fuckwit’.
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I’m doing the moral calculations. Fuck Biden, but fuck Trump more. If I vote for Biden, millions suffer. If I vote for Trump (or waste my vote so he wins), even more suffer. Doesn’t take too much evaluating to pick being slapped in the face vs bring punched in the face.
I absolutely support the undecided campaign in the primaries to put pressure on Biden, but putting pressure on him and the DNC by letting Trump be in charge for another 4 years is a terrible idea. Even without Trump in office the GOP is quickly eroding even the semblance of democracy we’ve had for a while, but with 4 years of Trump accelerating that I think this would be the last time my vote even slightly matters. Then I’d also need to evacuate from the country because I’m trans and don’t want them ruining my life. I’m voting for Biden in the general to avoid that, and then afterwards I guess I have to figure out what I can even do about the still-evolving bad situation that I helped successfully slow.
If reducing suffering and not letting an impossible perfect be the enemy of the better is amoral, I don’t understand your definition of moral. I’m a utilitarian if you couldn’t tell.
Says the person voting for Trump.
I understand your position and hate that we live in a shitty world where that choice is forced on people, but from what i see it from here, you guys have a choice between choosing the guy who’s not good but is at least doing some good, and the active fascist idolizing Hitler, with every neutral vote being effectively helping the fascist.
Not much of a choice, yes, but that’s where you are, and any vote not going to the not good guy will help the fascist. So that’s your choice, will you choose to fly over the cliff along with everybody else in the rest of the car or help avoiding that?
Biden isn’t doing any harm reduction for anyone right now. Maintaining the status quo will just put us right back here in 2-4 years time. Holding Biden’s feet ti the fire and making him implement actual harm reduction now in return for voting for him in November is what any sane voting block needs to do.
The Democrats have been less terrible than the GOP for decades now. They need to actually start offering solutions and helping people though. The Democrats need to actually earn votes, not just shame you for voting for Republicans
Though I agree that would be ideal, it also takes more work than just saying “see those guys want to make your life worse, we might not do that openly, vote for us because there’s no other choice”
Humans are lazy, and power hungry. Even Democrats.
The Democrats know who they need to vote for them, and those people have made it clear what they want. There are no “moderate” Republicans that are gonna vote Biden, so he needs to actually listen to the people who will vote for him and give them what they want. And they want it now because they aren’t gonna fall for the the Democrat bait and switch anymore.
People can get as mad as they want about people using their vote to get what they want, but that’s literally hiw the system is designed to work.
so he needs to actually listen to the people who will vote for him and give them what they want
Why? It’s more work. And who are you gonna vote for anyways? Someone else that will end up with Drumpf again?
Like I said, humans are lazy and power hungry.
I guarantee you that trump isn’t going to save the brown people in the middle east. We don’t have to compare it to ice cream then. How about voting between killing brown people vs killing brown people, subjugation women, and taking from the working class to give to our oligarchs. Does that help make it clearer?
The point is not voting helps the second result move along
And who are the Democrats and who are the GOP in your analogy? Because both do a fine job of checking off all of those boxes.
pretty sure biden was president when roe v wade was overturned, so i don’t see how giving him power again would help the women you’re mentioning. also pretty sure biden has been helping oversee the oppression of the working class from dc for about 50 years, so i am not exactly convinced he’s going to do anything about it if he literally can’t lose any more elections.
You do realize that trump put 3 Supreme Court justices and flipped the court right?? Do trump supporters just not understand cause and effect?
The depressing thing is that not only Trump supporters but most people in my experience do not have a firm grasp on cause and effect, especially politically and historically
Or, more realistically:
- 3 vote to drive off the cliff
- 2 vote for ice-cream
- 4 vote to drive off the cliff at a slightly reduced speed, having been assured that they might get to look at a picture of some ice-cream, but only after democracy has been saved
Yeah, I really don’t get this attitude on Lemmy. I get not wanting to crash the bus. But voting for the guy who at best will let the other guy crash the bus in the future or at worst crash the bus tomorrow isn’t the answer.
I first thought that Lemmy was a little more of the early internet forums I remember, more anti-establishment, anarchist, left wing, but there’s way too much “vote blue no matter who” which is the exact same mentality that has killed the Republican party. Is Candidate A an immoral shit bag? Doesn’t matter; there’s a D next to their name. Probably better than the guy with the R. Better not see if anyone else is on the list.
I can afford to vote my conscience. I live in a deeply red state, so my vote doesn’t matter, something Democrats could try to fix, but they won’t. Voting 3rd party does matter though, and it’s the only way to truly affect real change and make a difference. It’s the DNC and RNC’s job to field a candidate who’s worth your vote. If they don’t do that, find someone who’s worth it.
Youre not going to get a chance to vote third party again under donnie dump, tho.
Nah, they’ll still let parties that don’t have a chance run for election. Just look at Russia, they recently had an election…
Oh yes, fair point. Like the communist party of russia. There once was many, but they ensured only the one that they could best control remains
You will never get a chance to vote for what you want became America isn’t a democracy. It’s not a democracy if a club of rich people choose who you get to vote for. That’s literally how Chinese democracy works except it’s the party instead of the oligarchs.
Cant decide if this comment is more ignorant, or defeatist…
The bus is heading for a cliff. Someone stands up and says, “this is stupid! We should change the way we make decisions so this can’t happen!” You hold that person down so they can’t stop the driver because you want to tell the driver to get ice cream after the bus drives off the cliff.
Someone has not read the faq in the OP. And either theyve missed the million and one times i call for direct action, or theyre just another bad faith actor.
The US is not a democracy, it’s an oligarchy. This is a fact. We talk about it constantly. The fact that oligarchs basically choose who can and can’t run for the two major parties, and that the two major parties control the debates, mirrors the way the Chinese Communist Party controls who can run in elections. In both cases they let the people choose between the options that are acceptable to those who are actually in charge. This is just an observation of reality.
The US was built by slave owning oligarchs who didn’t want to pay taxes for the genocide they’d been doing. They built a system od government around controlling the population. Only landed white men could vote. The facade of the system has changed over time but the system itself remains largely the same: a small group of landed white men get to control basically everything. This is just an observation of history.
The idea that any colonizer state can possibly be democratic is just absurd. Any system bult on genocide and oppression won’t magically stop being built on genocide and oppression. The system must be completely replaced.
So the question to ask is if you advocate direct action to make sure this isn’t something that can ever happened again, or if you just advocate direct action so you can go back to brunch until next time?
I would honestly recommend moving somewhere that federates with both lib and tankie servers because the tone/level of debate otherwise is pretty grim imho
This is written from an “I’m right, you’re wrong” perspective. In real life, no one is running a drive off a cliff campaign, and the guy promising ice cream may not be able to deliver.
Also, fundamentally both left and right can make the argument the other side wants to run off a cliff.
I mean, one person is promising to end democracy in favor of chrisofacism. I feel like a “drive off the cliff” campaign is a pretty apt analogy.
It’s not. In a christofascism, not everybody suffers. People just assume they will be in the not suffering group. If a bus runs off a cliff, not so much.
Yeah, it’s a baby’s understanding of politics.
Like do these people actually think we get to vote on what the bus does? No, we’re voting on the bus driver. We’ve got a screaming maniac and a doddering fool who keeps letting the maniac yank the wheel anyway, and they’re both proven liars.
Pointing out that this situation is bad is not irresponsible. The irresponsible thing is to just vote and cheer on the fool because you’re so afraid of the maniac.
In real life, no one is running a drive off a cliff campaign
if this is happening there’s a moral imperative to hijack the bus yourself
Also, fundamentally both left and right can make the argument the other side wants to run off a cliff.
Which is a great achievement by republicans. They’re excellent at controlling the narrative and making it seam like the Biden admin is actually equally bad.
Disclaimer, I’m Dutch, so my view is an outside view;
I don’t know if it’s their achievement. It seems to me that in the USA you can choose for the conservatives who want to keep everything as it always was, including Russia as the bad guys and Israel as the ever lasting allie. Or you can chose for the conservatives who want to install a state religion and re-install segregation. The first group wants to be a global power with reach all over the world, the last group doesn’t care for the rest of the world. With both groups the rich get richer.
