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Alright new atrocity from Israel just dropped, who should we blame:
The fascists running Israelthe fascists running the USthe democratic party who teed up the atrocity- a couple hundred leftists on lemmy who didn’t vote
All of the above, plus:
- Reddit for turning their platform into a partisan shithole
- Elon Musk, Sundar Pichai and Mark Zuckerberg for allowing right wing propaganda and disinformation to proliferate on their platforms.
- Joe Rogan for political bias (inviting Donald Trump and not Kamala Harris onto his podcast)
Leftists, regardless of how they voted.
Clearly it’s the leftists, they personally didn’t vote or voted third party or voted for Trump or whatever we need to say to deflect blame, and they did it in every swing state! It’s their fault, not the candidate!
This is sort of strawmanning some of the criticism. Leftists who held up nonvoting as some kind of magic bullet for gaza definitely seem like they are dumber than rocks for thinking nonvoting is the same as strategic voting.
However, There’s a bunch of like consultants and dem strategists that have clung to this to scapegoat these people as though there wasn’t a long chain of massive errors dems and their braindead consultants weren’t heavily involved in.
At the end of the day just stop listening to “not voting is a moral stance” people and put fires under the real culprits: lying republican media and apathetic democrat politicians
Look, it’s time to take stock and move ahead, we need to focus on the here and now and try to do some good, and prevent some bad.
To that end, I recommend that both liberals and leftists focus on performatively scolding imaginary interlocutors from the other group over semi anonymous forums.
The neoliberal Dems are currently rubber stamping Trump’s fascist agenda
They aren’t interested in helping people.
Liberalism doesnt fucking exist in America, its called neoliberalism and its racist af. Do you all not realize how far right wing America actually is or do you just love to play stupid?
It’s the Palestinian Muslim Leftists who have completely overrun our beloved liberal institutions and undermined them. These tankies are the fifth column that brought Harris’s glorious march to office down from the inside.
We clearly need to purge our companies, our schools, and our political organizations of anyone who resembles, aligns with, or appears to look like a Palestinian or a Leftist sympathizer.
We absolutely must do this in order to Beat Trump. You do want to Beat Trump, don’t you?
I sure do! So we must:
- Keep COVID-19 away from the public eye as trump wanted
- Keep Mexicans in cages like Trump wanted
- Build the wall using federal funding despite several federal laws saying we can’t, like Trump wanted
- Allow the erosion of rights for BIPOC like Trump wanted
- Allow for the removal of rights for women, like Trump wanted
- Allow for the removal of rights for trans people in red states, like Trump wanted
- Fund genocide because it’s good for my 3000 year old book, like Trump wanted
- Boast about how we’ll have the biggest military, like Trump wanted.
- And do nothing to help the population with inflated prices of housing, rent, medical needs, groceries, and say we did all we could and you should be thankful the economy is doing great, like Trump wanted!
Anything else is Dreamland! Why wouldn’t I want what Trump stans want? I want to court them so much I’ll vote for anyone who’s on the blue team, no matter how much they hate me!
I personally can’t wait for them to corralled all those men who are trans! They should be punished! They should chop off their dicks. Then I could probably get mine extended uhh 2 or 3 more inches would be totally fine.
Its good to mock those couple hundred people anyway, but to blame them for it is scapegoating. They’re obviously kind of dumb but yeah like Joe Biden running for re-election is like probably the #1 dick that Democrats tripped over. Campaigning with abysmally unpopular Cheneys, buying ads on republican media instead of knocking on doors or spending money on dem neutral media, focusing too much on trump instead of on strengths, moving right on immigration all contributed.
2024 was nothing less than a strategic clusterfuck.
Dems should run primaries even when they’re running for re-election. Its free coverage and right wing media has to address it.
Neither party runs presidential primaries when their guy is incumbent. It’s almost superstitious, that having someone ‘primary’ your incumbent is going to make them lose (because of losses under those circumstances by Ford, Carter, and Bush Sr.
Of course the cause/effect is backwards, they were primaried because their administration was at risk, they weren’t at risk because of the primary, but as superstitions go…
They stopped running primaries because they almost lost control of the party to Bernie Sanders in 2016.
The DNC will never make that mistake again. It made their doners very upset.
But they are still running primaries? If talking about the presidential specifically, they did a typical primary in 2020 and sure in 2024 it was not done, but we’ve got people blaming “real primaries” against incumbents for losses in 76, 80, and 92 and neither party does it as a result.
You think the Europeans are going to do anything about it? Think again.
If the American President wants to take Gaza by force and turn it into a Mediterranean Vegas, he’s going to do it with very little pushback.
Don’t act so surprised. We all knew elections have consequences, right? This (among other things) is the obvious and predictable outcome of allowing Trump to win the election.
(sheer insanity has just been described in detail)
BBC Presenter (nods thoughtfully, shifts some papers)
“Alright, thanks. That was Charles Manson there, live from Narnia.”BBC Presenter (split-second later, brightly)
“And now an endangered frog species sees a new life on Mars! Our nature correspondent Jethro Tull with the latest…”BUT WHAT ABOUT GENOCIDE JOE!?! KAMALA IS BAD! TRUNP WILL FIX EVERYTHING!
/s
This kind of take is a tired meme at this point.
No one said this.
You can literally browse my comment history and see that many many people said this to me.
No, they didn’t. If it’s that easy, provide a link.
I forgot that I actually asked a question about it so here a whole thread where you can quite easily see people saying it.
Skimmed, didn’t see it. It’s >500 comments so you’ll have to be more specific. It’s a nice tactic to point to an enormous wall of text and asserting the evidence is somewhere inside, leaving it to me to prove a negative.
Let’s just end it here hey.
I don’t have the patience or energy right now.
If you don’t believe that people were saying that Biden/Trump/Harris would all be equally as bad for Palestine then I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s really doesn’t matter and as I said earlier. Take care and have a nice evening.
What an amazing exercise in deflection!
Let’s just end it here hey.
Conveniently, right after you were proven wrong.
If you don’t believe that people were saying that Biden/Trump/Harris would all be equally as bad for Palestine then I don’t know what to tell you.
That’s not what the claim was. After being proven wrong, you’re trying to pretend we were talking about something completely different.
The claim in question was, “Trump will fix everything.” You can’t produce that, you’re full of shit, and you were called on it.
But sure, we can end it here. I’ve proven my point and you will never admit it so there’s nothing more to say.
This is in my comment history and although the mod has removed the comments from the other person you can easily infer what they’re saying from what I’m replying. You could also use the mod log to recover those comments.
This will also give you a head start to browse my comments in the same time period as it was post election.
Not that I should have to do this for you, you should want to seek truth and not just shrug things off. Also, it would be nice to be a little more polite.
you can easily infer what they’re saying from what I’m replying.
Lol. I know your side, you are all too happy to equate criticizism of your candidate with an endorsement of the other side. If I was going to take your word for it, I wouldn’t have challenged the claim in the first place.
When I searched the modlog for “jailgenociders,” guess what I found? “Trump belongs in jail.” “sadnonyank” says, “You’re no better than a maga idiot, you just don’t realize you’re a fascist too.”
So you were lying. Who could’ve predicted?
Idk why y’all lie all the time, it’s so easy to check and expose it. I guess you’re just used to people not checking so you get away with it.
Dude you sound insane.
I’m not lying and I’ve said numerous times that the comments are there.
Can you share the screenshots of mod log you checked that corresponds to the thread I linked? I most likely won’t reply tonight as I’m in bed now but I’ll happily continue tomorrow once you’ve shared what you found.
Thanks. Have a nice evening.
Lol. So that’s your counter to being checked and proven objectively wrong, just accuse me of “sounding insane” because I did the homework.
No, I won’t share screenshots from the modlog, as posting removed content generally goes against the rules. You can check the same way I did, as can anyone reading.
You are technically correct, in a way that would make Hermes Conrad blush. It is true, that nobody said “Trump will fix everything.” itsonlygeorge didn’t say that anyone literally said that exact phrase. It’s an exaggeration of the actual verbal abuse we’ve been subject to for the last year or so.
I wonder if your standard works both ways. If I characterized your side as saying, “I voted for Kamala because I love watching Israel kill babies,” and then was completely incapable of providing evidence that anyone saying anything like that, would you say that I was only “technically [in]correct, in a way that would make Hermes Conrad blush?” I doubt it.
Wat? Pretty much everybody said this.
Who on Lemmy was saying, “Trump will fix everything?” Where?
It wasn’t so much that people claimed Trump would be better. However, people claiming they would be equally bad because you can’t get worse than genocide were fucking EVERYWHERE. Every single thread, even threads not even tangentially related to Gaza or politics. They canvased every thread. And they’re still here.
Let’s review:
Them: TRUNP WILL FIX EVERYTHING!
Me: No one said this.
Them: Wat? Pretty much everybody said this.
Me: Who on Lemmy was saying, “Trump will fix everything?” Where?
You: It wasn’t so much that people claimed Trump would be better.
Ok, thanks for agreeing with me, glad we cleared that up.
Are you under the impression that we’re only allowed to reply if we’re arguing directly with you?
No, but it seemed like you were trying to. I guess I was mistaken, in that case, I’m glad to have you backing up my position.
There were a few bots posting shit takes like that, like Ozma, but it isn’t something you see often over here.
I very occasionally saw something like that, and it generally didn’t get upvoted at all and was criticized by both sides.
Meanwhile 🦗🦗🦗🦗 from the genocide Joe caucus.
I’m not sure the incessant chorus of 'I told you so’s is really helping the cause.
Personally, I’m watching the dumpster fire from up on your hat, without any option to participate in your elections either way, but it’s still getting pretty grating. Surely, there’s a better strategy.
I’m not sure the incessant chorus of 'I told you so’s is really helping the cause.
I’ve heard so much MSNBC bigotry in the last month.
“Palestinians cost us the election!”
“Trans people cost us the election!”
“Hispanics cost us the election!”
“Everyone under 40 cost us the election!”
This is typically followed by some sickeningly smug “I hope they enjoy what they get” from the most vile and repulsive insider slime the party has to offer. And now Dem Leadership is just throwing up its hands, insisting Trump’s just a dictator now and there’s nothing any of them can do.
Hell, the fucking CIA - the agency that exists to topple foreign governments - seems equally indolent and feckless. So, idk. Maybe saying “I told you so” isn’t impacting the cause one way or another.
Yes, because hopefully if we point out how much not voting has hurt us and everyone else, these dimwits will actually choose the lesser evil next time instead of letting the greater evil win
We absolutely will not. Take that into account and stop thinking it’s a bluff you can call.
Do you not think Biden was instrumental in setting this up?
Biden: doesn’t invade Gaza
Genocide Joe crowd after Trump cleanses Gaza: But did you think about how this is Joe Bidens fault?
It’s clear that Israel has major sway with the US. We were not gonna stop them no matter who was in charge. I think Joe did as much as he could without pissing off our corporate overlords but him ending the conflict was never gonna happen.
We haven’t invaded Gaza yet, and i don’t think we will just like i don’t think we’ll invade Canada or Greenland. Trump says a lot of dumb shit that will never happen. The only thing that has happened since trump took over is a ceasefire.
we were not gonna stop them no matter who was in charge. I think Joe did as much as he could
He could’ve at least tried by blocking arms shipments. Biden could’ve done that at any time since there’s already a law on the books that the u.s. must stop weapons shipments if there is credible evidence they will be used in war crimes. Biden and his state department refused to enforce this law and ignored multiple reports about war crimes to do so. One time they tried to do it on a specific squad in the Israeli military of ultra orthodox that was doing crimes in the west bank but gave in after bibi said it was anti-semetic.
Even if that wasn’t an option Biden could’ve vetoed the many arms packages that were passed after it was clear Israel was attempting a genocide, he didn’t. Even after he was effectively a lame duck after he dropped out and didn’t have to worry about the Israel lobby. Even after he was actually a lame duck and the dems already lost.
This wasn’t Biden being handcuffed by outside forces, he had multiple opportunities to stand against the genocide and refused to because he is an ardent zionist who is fine with the horrors in gaza.
People would be blaming Biden for genocide even if he did not partake in the genocide
What the fuck are we supposed to say? We spent a year and a half doing everything in our power to show the dems what they need to do to have a chance to win, they chose genocide instead.
Its difficult because the dems 100% were enabling genocide. But, crazy enough, there’s bad and worse genocide.
People who protest vote think they’re “showing the dems” when they don’t vote. Maybe the dems lose now but they learn a painful lesson and change in the future.
But here’s the thing. The dems would rather lose to republicans than change. They will eat your protest vote. And they will accept they lost power for 4 years. And then they get re-elected and go back to what they were doing before. Being greedy and taking money from lobbyist as much ad possible, including aipac, but not outright malicious. They never change because people only vote centrist dem or further right.
And them dems suck. They’re bad. But Republicans? They’re worse. They aren’t doing genocide just for the profits. They’re also doing it for the fun of it. The dems will show some restraint to avoid war with Iran. The Republicans won’t.
So the protest vote won’t show the dems shit. It will just unleash unapologetic genocide instead of milquetoast genocide. And while they’re at it, the republicans will tank the economy and fuck up the lives of every minority they can manage.
And we (informed voters) spent a year and a half painting you a very detailed picture of what was going to happen if you didn’t suck it up and do what was necessary to keep a rapist traitor out of the White House. Hell… even HE spent a year and a half telling you exactly what he was going to do.
Remember Project 2025? Yeah… that is the actual name of what’s happening right now.
Sooo……
What the fuck are we supposed to say?
Start with: “I’m sorry” and work from there. Because anything short of this is unacceptable.
spent a year and a half painting you a very detailed picture of what was going to happen if you didn’t suck it up and do what was necessary to keep a rapist traitor out of the White House
Oh, far more than a year and a half.
Joe Biden to rich donors: “Nothing would fundamentally change” if he’s elected
Dems made it crystal clear that they were going to roll over to Republicans, whether nor not they won. Absolutely nothing in the last month has lent weight to the contrary.
To be honest, of all the posts I’ve seen of the shit Trump is pulling, all I’ve seen is comments complaining of the Democrats who didn’t vote. The actual story in the post…crickets. It’s unnerving when you want to actually see comments about the subject of the post and all the comments are “wwuuaahhh, you didn’t vote for Harris it’s all your fault” against people who aren’t even reading the goddamn posts. I’m sick of it!
Like…I hear you guys. I don’t fully agree but I hear you. But for fuck sakes, let it go, lets talk about the actual post instead of going on and on about the perceived injustice the Democrats have suffefed. Right or wrong, it’s done! Let it go!
Did you think that maybe it’s because we all already knew about all of this shit? So it’s not as important for us to spend time discussing it because…
WE ALREADY HAVE BEEN FOR THE PAST YEAR.
Yes, I know you know. You are all very smart and sofisticated. But by being stuck on your complaining you are preventing people from discussing what really matters. In my case I see a post about the latest Trump antic, I go in with a opinion to give and eager to see other people’s insights.
But it’s all “wuahhhaaa…it’s all their fault” and the actual shit that Trump pulled takes the back seat and is buried in your moping. So I’ve mostly given up on commenting on these posts even though I agree more with you than not. Trump himself couldn’t censor me more effectively.
Your priority is being right. And since the shit that Trump does makes it easier for you to feel right then that is all you want the world to know. How right you are and how wrong the others were. And they should say “sorry” for eternity so you can feel right forever, while Trumps rapes your butt because your ego is what matters.
I want to be angry with you. But ultimately I just find it sad and depressing.
Neat!
So wtf are you doing on here then? Your entire premise is so sad, months after one failed victory and you’re demanding random strangers say they’re “sorry” to you? Were you Kamala’s campaign manager or something? Because the vibes fit right in.
You spent a year telling people what to do, congrats. Do you think the progressive movement just started? Do you think this is the first set-back the world has succumbed to?
It’s kinda obvious that comments like yours reveal it’s just some sort of sports game to you. You spent one singular year talking progressively, so now it’s not as important to you but will post several comments saying how important it is for others on your team to bow down to your superiority… because you spent a singular year talking progressively… whoopdee fucking doo.
.ml
ROFL!
The only thing that would have kept Trump out of the whitehouse was for the democrats to stop facilitating genocide.
You blue MAGA are the ones who helped them maintain the delusion they could have both their genocide and win. You helped them maintain the delusion they could have won with Biden until 5 months before the election.
The sad truth is that turning on Israel would have done more damage to the democrats electorally than it would’ve helped. Not saying it’s good, just sayings it’s true, and waving Gaza around as “the reason” Harris lost is kind of disingenuous and misses the bigger picture
Right up front, I voted for the ‘lesser evil’ in a swing state, so stow those comments about me enabling fascism.
The sad truth is that turning on Israel would have done more damage to the democrats electorally than it would’ve helped
I mean, you can keep saying that. But it’s not even true among Jewish voters, let alone the larger electorate.
I’m really starting to suspect these kind of comments are morality laundering after spending months backing an immoral stance held by a feckless executive who refused to see past his moral blind spot.
- The populace didn’t want the death and destruction.
- Career bureaucrats at the state department didn’t want it.
- Online commentators refused to seriously entertain criticism of Joe as anything but bad faith - so the message became “we’re okay with it” never “I don’t want this or Trump, do better Joe”
Yes, the bigger picture is that as soon as Harris got the nomination, she ran back to the cold, dead embrace of the Biden campaign, and supported every single policy that made Biden so unpopular. No muslim spoke at the DNC, but they had cops, CPB, and republicans speaking for the party.
Her words when asked what the difference between a Biden and Harris admin would be was “Well I would appoint a republican to my cabinet”.
Yes, the bigger picture is that Harris was a bad candidate for a litany of reasons.
Harris could have been a great candidate. The flaw was that she promised more of the same. She would have trounced Trump if she became the candidate we all hoped she would be in the weeks after she announced and appointed Tim Walz VP.
This isn’t a messaging issue. Biden’s greatest flaw wasn’t that he was old, it was that he didn’t fight for the things people elected him to fight for, and instead compromised with republicans, ended covid protections, built more of Turmps wall, deported more immigrants, sent more weapons to Israel, and did fuckall to protect women’s rights.
The sad truth is that turning on Israel would have done more damage to the democrats electorally than it would’ve helped.
“Our country just wants genocide too much” is quite the take.
I love this logic because it doesn’t even matter how bad the position is - we could be arguing against sending immigrants to gas chambers and you could still say “sorry, they can’t run against that because they’d lose more votes than they’d gain”. Nevermind the fact that they helped to create the political reality that they are now claiming to be helpless against. They spent the last 80 years making Israel into the centerpiece of middle eastern foreign policy and now they can’t speak out against an ongoing genocide because they might lose their control and influence in the region.
Even better - some of the same people saying ‘gaza isn’t the reason we lost’ are also saying ‘we lost because we’re too woke’ - it shows just how much contempt the democrats have for their base that they dismiss the problem being with their genocidal foreign policy and instead blame their loss on being too friendly toward minorities.
LMAO your moral stand is going to literally get people murdered.
How does that feel? I think it’d feel bad.
You don’t even need to take the moral stand to tell democrats to do the moral thing when the moral thing is also the only shot they had at winning.
Your stance is morally repugnant, but more importantly, ineffective. We told the democrats they would lose if they did genocide. You told the democrats they could win while doing genocide. Look at what happened.
Lmao, are you making a moral argument against acting according to morals?
bLuE mAgA!
It’s good to see you leaning into what your entitlement has won for you. Glad you can own it so transparently.
People are going to suffer but at least it’s not the democrats brand of genocide, right?
You learned nothing in 2016, you learned nothing in 2020, and you learned nothing in 2024. Can’t wait to see you insisting that the democrats can win while running on compromise, building the wall, deporting every immigrant, getting tough on crime, banning trans people from public life, and continuing whatever war Trump starts in 2028.
That still doesn’t sound like “I’m sorry.”
God imagine if there was a Blue MAGA, a cult that was just as die-hard about protecting transpeople, labor rights, and all that as Red MAGA was with destroying them.
Frankly I think that’s the answer - lie to the retards better than the real MAGA - but Democrats won’t do that…
I cannot imagine a cult stronger than one supporting genocide.
Too late to say anything now that you’ve helped elect the orange felon. Too bad you couldn’t stfu before and steered a significant amount of people to vote for the cunt as a protest vote. Enjoy the alternative.
you’ve helped elect the orange felon
I never see liberals say this shit to Obama or Clinton, despite Barry and Hildawg being the two most invigorating force behind the 2016 Trump climb to the top of the GOP Primary. I don’t see them flinging it at the Starmer campaign staff, who popped across the pond to neatly derail Harris’s poll climb with their shitty advice. I certainly don’t see any mention of the DNC, the Dem donor class, or anyone who actually ran for office taking blame.
But hey, maybe cuddle up closer to your friends the Cheneys next election cycle. Maybe they’ve got the secret sauce that wins elections.
Did you think that maybe uniting behind an evil candidate as your collective sole effort to defeat Trump was a bad plan?
You all say, “if only you all did what we did, we would have won.” That’s true in reverse - if you had all only done what we did, we would have won. And we wouldn’t have had a war criminal in office either.
Why is the Democrat the default vote? How is it compatible with democracy at all, that the one thing we actually control as a people, the vote, isn’t even based on who’s the best candidate?
In my mind, this is very simple, we have a basic responsibility as a people to exercise FULL control over who’s in office, to secure the outcomes we want. And we’re failing to do that. We don’t go through the process of figuring out who out of every candidate is best. The TV tells us which of two candidates to pick, and we pick one of those two. That eliminates all democratic checks on the government.
Hey you can elect this person that’ll slap you or this person that’ll stab you in the face.
Oh well the slapping is so bad we should just not choose either and give the win to face stabby candidate. That’s the dumbass “logic” that got us here.
I mean, I fully expect it was also mostly a foreign psyop to steer votes toward Trump or at least generate apathy and keep votes from going to Kamala (same outcome more or less). Mostly because it’s such a dumb premise of why you wouldn’t vote for Harris and just sit out the election. So I can’t imagine it was truly widespread and I think that’s also why it’s crickets now that the election is over and Russia’s orange gremlin candidate for president of the USA won.
The actual choice:
A) Stabs you in the heart
B) Stabs you in the lung
C) No stabbing, picks wildflowers for you
And you guys go, “C isn’t viable! At least you’re less likely to die if you get stabbed in the lung - you have an entire hour to get to the hospital!”
Bro, C is right there. Was there the whole time. Why the fuck would we, AS A POPULATION, choose anything but the best option.
49% of the country is voting for A
49% of the country is voting for B
2% of the country is voting C
Idunno guys, I just feel like if we work really hard to siphon votes away from B, we can make it work
No, C is not “right there” when our electoral politics work the way they do. That’s a huge strawman argument.
The reality is there were two choices, one clearly better for Palestinians.
A strawman argument is when they misrepresent something you’re saying, not when you think they’re wrong about how electoral politics work.
“Work the way they do”. Oh, OK. If that’s not how electoral politics work!
C got you trump you utter doughnut.
Game theory has consequences.
Did you see this part of my comment?
Why the fuck would we, AS A POPULATION, choose anything but the best option.
The population voting for C gets you…what? Let’s think about this. Is it…C? Hmm, yes, it is.
Notice how I made a point to phrase it that way, to preempt comments like yours entirely? And then you went and posted that anyway, either because you didn’t read my comment, or just felt like ignoring the point I was actually making?
You people INSIST we only ever look at it in terms of, “49.999 are voting Trump, 49.999 are voting Harris, your vote decides the election!” The pre-narrowed, individual choice. But that’s not how the game theory applies here. The game in this case is that there’s ~210M people with the ability to vote for anyone. There is no pre-narrowing. Their collective decision results in the electoral outcome. Your application of game theory here is literally incorrect.
By your logic, choices A through Z all have equal odds of winning.
They don’t.
I can go into a full explanation about how you’re wrong and you are also to blame for this happening, but I won’t cause were so far past the tipping point there no reason to explain it to you anymore. Just know most everyone here knows you’re either ignorant or dumb. The rest of us know you’re both
The odds of winning, for the candidate that secures a majority of EC votes, is exactly 100% (so long as that process is followed). The determining factor of that is the voting decisions of the population. That is not a function you can describe only in probabilistic terms. By all means, let’s hear your broken explanation filled with omissions and logical errors.
There are no wildflowers on the road to hell, but it is paved with good intentions.
C is right there only if you’re naive enougn to believe it.
Most people don’t want war. Yet they will go to war, each side convinced in their own self-righteousness. That is the human condition. Picking wildflowers isn’t going to stop the Nazi boot or anything else for that matter. Another way to think about it - Charlie Chaplin’s messages in the 1930s were great, full of hope, and reached a lot of people. But that was nowhere near what was needed. Tens of millions had to die. It’s not gonna be any different this time around, Chaplin or no Chaplin.
It’s not the “human condition”. All of these things are products of cultural practices and belief systems. Not all societies wage war. Not all societies put mass murderers in control. You cannot be so careless with your logic and hope to ever arrive at a correct conclusion.
🤡
Congratulations, you enabled the real genocide. I hope you’re proud of yourself.
Work within the constraints of the first past the post voting system you have while working toward ranked choice or something more functional.
Joe offered me Vanilla Ice Cream, but I prefer Strawberry, so to spite Joe I took Donald’s offer to let him piss in my mouth…
You were warned what Trump wanted to do, and now he’s turning Palestine into a Trump Resort
Joe offered me Vanilla Ice Cream, but I prefer Strawberry,
This is literally what centrists think about people who are upset about their genocide.
If you expected them to be surprised then you clearly haven’t been paying attention to Trump’s statements before now.
So the last and final attempt to steer the United States from fuelling genocide failed.
And what ethnicity are they talking about, because as far as I can tell there isn’t any special ethnic group living in gaza.
You’re right of course. There is nothing special about Palestinians, they are an ethnic group just like all the others.
They did their job: telling you about news that just occurred at that moment. For the analysis they will need some time. Which is absolutely right.
Hey does Pepperidge farms remember all the fucking morons on Lemmy urging not to vote for Harris because she was allegedly complicit in genocide? I sure as shit do.
Know what’s gonna be objectively worse, 100% regardless of the veracity those allegations? The reality that they helped forge instead.
I think people overestimating just how much the average person cares about wars abroad. This applies to every country.
Those millions of democratic voters that voted Biden in 2020, saw that the cost of living keeps going up, inflation happens and correlates with Biden’s term, and most people doesn’t understand that:
Correlation =/= Causation.
Most of those 7 million Democratic voters that voted Biden but didn’t vote Harris are probably thinking: I voted for Joe Biden and nothing changed, why bother voting
I doubt that 7 Million people suddenly cared about a foreign genocide (like when have the average civillian cared?)
Same shit, different asshole? Democrats at least could’ve promised an end to the genocide but they collected the pay cheque from AIPAC instead
Ergo, they lost
It’s That Simple™
(Don’t @ me I’m not American, thank god)
The point was to pressure the Dems into giving up on genocide. You wanna talk about “pepperidge farm remembers”, I got one for ya
Remember when the Dems thought they could win while actively telling people who were anti genocide to go fuck themselves?
Hey, what’s weirder? Not voting for someone committing genocide, or being unwilling to stop committing a genocide even if it costs you the election?
How does it feel that the only thing that Harris had to do was say “I will stop weapons to Israel” and she would of won?
You can’t keep blaming the voters when the strategy was at fault. They knew they would lose votes. They thought they could court the centrists and liberal Republicans to make up for it. They were so fucking wrong. And somehow it’s not their own fault for having the worst campaign strategy known to man.
Like, Christ. Y’all ain’t ever gonna stop trying to blame leftists. You’ll be up against the wall with leftists fighting for your life and you’ll still be like “can’t believe you didn’t vote Harris”. I can’t believe Harris threw away the election over the continued genocide of palastinians. That’s fucking crazy. Is that not crazy to you? You don’t find it fucking insane that the Dems would rather a fascist state than stop actively committing a genocide? Cause that’s the fucking Gambit they ran and look where we are.
Look. I’m pissed. Your pissed. But we are just people with no power. Same with all those voters you wanna complain about. All we have is the ability to yell and vote. And while I voted for Harris out of fucking fear, I cannot blame the people who yelled “I will not vote for you if you keep committing genocide” and were fucking CALLED ON THAT SHIT. What kind of monster gambles with their own base over a fucking genocide?
Remember when the Dems thought they could win while actively telling people who were anti genocide to go fuck themselves?
I do, and was downvoted for calling it out from my last account, and this one for remembering it.
Are these people gaslit or are they doing it for their favorite political celebrities who don’t know they exist or care for them?
Anything other than concede to the left. Gotta protect that capital
Democrats love losing because it gives them more money as Republicans enact evil policies. “We can’t stop them! …unless you give us what’s left of your paycheck! That’s how we can stop trump! Your money!”
As a fellow reluctant Harris voter, what upsets me the most is that the numbers people have run shows that no, actually, genocide was not the deciding factor in this election, which is kind of an indictment of America itself, but regardless, I’m sick of leftists being blamed when all the ones I know STILL voted Harris and the data shows that it wasn’t leftist that didn’t turn out, it was centrists. Harris didn’t have a voter base. Sure, some dems turned out, but she didn’t actually inspire people to vote, and that’s basically the only way dems win.
Why blame the politicians with data and statistics on how to run a campaign when you can blame the voters who showed up?
How many times do we have to “swallow our pride” to vote for milquetoast candidates before we can have change? How many times do I have to vote for “nothing will fundamentally change” before I can call bullshit?
This exactly. Honestly, the thing I hate most about the republicans isn’t even who they are, it’s who they’ve made us. I’ve compromised on my morals more than I can count just to still be ruled by fascists. I wish I could at least have arrived here on a high horse lmaoooo.
Republicans are obviously fucking evil. They smile as they pass laws that enable the worst parts of the government to be even worse. And then say it’s because of the woke or some shit.
And then democrats just… Allow it. They then go “our compromise was that we allowed 2% less people to die from this bill being passed. So only 500K will die from this, instead of 501K.”
And it’s obviously better by numbers, but that’s all they want. Pure data. They don’t care about the optics of actually trying to stop republicans, they want the look of it.
They don’t want to stop aiding genocide, pretending they care about BIPOC as they say to bipartisan applause “We need to fund the police!” as they kneel for a photo.
But pass a law that says “Police should obey the laws they enforce” is impossible for them, somehow, no matter how many votes they get.
I’ve been swindled too many times. Republicans are obvious in that they hate me. Democrats act like a friend and then ghost you.
Wish I had more to add, but you definitely covered it all. It’s just gross. I know fascists win when we disengage, but dems have been teeing this up for them to knock out of the park for decades. I just wish you and yours the best and I hope you’re safe and able to make it through.
I wish you luck too. The average person isn’t my enemy, it’s the ones in power who enabled the evil, and the ones doing the evil.
It’s because she has no message. All she could promise voters was stuff like “I’ll give you a little bit of money to help you get a house.” She was all flash and no substance.
For what it’s worth, she did have some good policy proposals, but she had some good policy proposals for a neoliberal. The US has had enough of neo liberal politics, and it’s extremely unfortunate that it meant a turn to fascism. She was going to be a JoeBiden 2.0, if not even less effective. Joe Biden’s seminal piece of legislation with build back better couldn’t even make it through. Easy to point to things that you want to do, even if they are liberal, but neo liberals have been failing to enact even their absolutely minimal policy desires. It’s so pathetic and so sad that we are all suffering because the owning class is the way that it is
*for first time homebuyers who have rented for at least 2 years without a late payment
Because there’s nothing that makes a proposal more popular than adding means-testing.
She had a message, it was “more of the same”; when asked what she would do differently from Biden her response wasn’t “Fuck this guy who spent the last 4 years doing fuckall, I would have defended abortion rights, appointed an AG who would have put Trump in prison and gone after Manchin and Sinoma, and any republican, a head of the DEA who would have unscheduled cannabis, etc”, she said the difference was that she would appoint a republican to the cabinet.
100%
She could have read a laundry list of her First Week, Month intended actions and won over huge swaths of voters- if that was her strategy to win.
Instead she chose fuckall, which is exactly what Biden did for 4 years.
That promise for housing gets misquoted as well as what she actually offered was:
First generation homebuyers who no one in their family has ever owned a house, after paying rent in a government approved rental firm for 2 years could get up to $25,000. And stated starter homes would cost between $300,000 and $800,000 dollars depending on location.She did have a point to ask Congress to pass legislation to slow people buying more than 50 single family homes.
This was lost to her wealthy advisors telling her to not go through with these plans as they would impact the investment opportunities of housing.
She barely even got to flash before the DNC tried to reign in anything that might change things.
Yea, I see a lot of quotes online about how her brother-in-law or whatever had her rein in some policies and how she had a bunch of advisors that further reined in her policies, but if anything that kind of proves their point. She had no substance of her own and was willing to campaign on literally nothing believing that was the way to get elected. Kinda a devastating indictment of both her and the dems and the political industrial complex.
Agreed. Absolutely agreed.
She offered so little in the first place that the fact that she was told to offer even less with expectations that it would make her win the more desperate masses because it wasn’t anything “bad™” at least… It’s a huge statement on what they want to offer and what they expect in return:
The answer to both is simply, nothing.
Give nothing and expect nothing in return so that things hopefully stay the same. It’s a massive failing of politics right now.
voting is power, hell not voting is power. is it a fair system?
fuck no, but not voting did help get us here
disclaimer: gerrymandering and voter suppression also played a huge role
You know who committed genocide?
Stalin killed thousands of Poles. The USA had lynchings going on all through WW2. I’m not even going to start on the UK.
And they were all better alternatives than Hitler.
Greatest defence in the world. Vote for lynchings, better than extermination camps.
Or. Hear me out. Put a fucking bullet in both of them some bitches and stop accepting the lesser evil.
And what gun are you going to use?
Tell me what plan you have that puts Trump out.
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Stalin killed thousands of Poles.
Won’t anybody think of those poor innocent Germans Stalin killed?
The USSR was at war with right-wing insurgents. If you want to go down a rabbithole, do some research on any “polish resistance”, 50% chance you’ll come across nazi collaboration, warcrimes directed at jews, or both.
So, you’re saying Stalin should have turned down help from the Brits and Americans?
What are we talking about? I’m just saying one of those leaders was not like the other.
I’m talking about getting allies.
If you’re saying Stalin was perfect, okay. He still got in bed with the US and England.
Are you saying he shouldn’t have done that?
lol Stalin wasn’t perfect, he did some awful things such as the internment or relocation of minorities in preparation for WWII and various advice/demands he gave to the CPC that was catastrophic.
But to address your point, your enemy giving you equipment to help you fight another enemy doesn’t track to telling anyone telling the democrats that genocide is unpopular to shut up.
If yall had helped us, the democrats might have listened and not have driven the bus off the cliff. If we had shut up, they absolutely would have driven off the cliff.
Honestly not sure why it hasn’t been suggested that the ‘no vote’ bullshit was a tactic to get Repubs the win. Sure as hell worked and didn’t do anything to solve the issue, as we can blatantly see now.
It has, it’s been a conspiracy on lemmy for the past 6 months. Any time anyone criticized Biden or Harris for aiding a genocide someone would pop up and say they’re a secret republican or Russian bot.
If I had a nickel for every time I was called one of those, I’d have enough to flee the country from Trump.
It has, constantly. Anyone who disagrees with you folks is labelled a Russian bot who wants Trump to win. Even if they fall in line they were labelled that way, just for saying things like, “I’ll vote for Biden but his age is a legitimate concern.”
You must be unquestioning, do not question the party! You don’t wanna be one of those do you? You will vote for who we put in charge without your first amendment rights to question them!
Wasn’t the idea to get the Democrats to explicitly state they were a anti genocide and promise policies to back that up?
That was the big ask, yes.
It absolutely was. And it was pushed by tiktok, a Chinese psyop.
[citation needed]
TikTok’s algorithm exhibited pro-Republican bias during 2024 presidential race -
From an article posted very recently in Politics
I mean she entirely was.
And considering the US blocked every ceasefire under her and Biden, and people pointed out even a year ago that the US and Israel want an alternative to the Suez canal, and people pointed out that Israel was moving Palestinians out with the US’s help in order to do this, all that happened. Pretty sure it was going exactly the same way. If you haven’t noticed, democrats aren’t exactly sitting up and saying this is ethnic cleansing or genocide even now. Or trying to fight it.
You’re an idiot and the reason Trump won and is ruining the country. Congrats you enlightened centrist. Stupid fuck
My guy I’m exceptionally left wing in my politics I’m not even close to centrist. I’m not sure how you got that from my response.
Hey, everybody, we need to ignore trolls like this. They’re trying to divide the left. Instead, we have to unite to fight Trump.
It’s also obvious that Trump and BB were coordinating during the election to ensure Biden couldn’t get a ceasefire deal in place in order to harm him politically. But as soon as Trump takes the office they just agree to a ceasefire no problem (as if that hadn’t been the plan all along) aaaaaaand then Trump goes off about finishing the job and annexing the whole west bank for the US. What a fucking surprise.
It’s also obvious that Trump and BB were coordinating during the election to ensure Biden couldn’t get a ceasefire deal in place in order to harm him politically
And Biden played right into their hands.
I thought the ceasefire happened under Biden, but after the election had already been lost?
It did, but it was Trump’s representative who got the deal done. Trump didn’t want to deal with the hostage crisis along with everything else he had planned.
‘allegedly’
The mental gymnastics will only intensify as these fucking crypto-nazis get to distance themselves from their beliefs and actions of just a few months ago.
I don’t think history looks back negatively on any “I won’t support [a little] genocide” crowd, if there isn’t maybe this will be the first.
Is there a particular “this group of common folk opposed Hitler wrongly, everything’s their fault” narrative that is common? I meant this as a rant, but I’m too ignorant and perhaps there is. Obviously, Nazis and Nazi supporters are criticised. There’s those in power that handed it off to Hitler that take some flak. But those without power and also didn’t support Hitler what criticisms do they come under
Learning the lessons of history and who future generations are going to blame for the here and now. Is it going to be leftists that didn’t vote Nazi?
Harris was complicit in genocide.
Trump loudly talked about how he would make the genocide worse.
Why absolve Harris in an attempt to strengthen your argument?
nobody is absolving Harris. She was the lesser evil, and many people chose not to choose, resulting in the greater evil anyways.
I still can’t get over how they were essentially presented with a simplified version of the trolley problem and chose to not pull the lever.
By their own narrative that “the democrats are complicit in a genocide in Gaza”, they were aware that Palestinians were metaphorically tied to both tracks, yet decided to not pull the lever when America itself and every marginalized person living within was also on the track the trolley barreled towards.
Why the fuck did the democrats leave Palestinians to their tracks?
This didn’t have to be a difficult problem where we’re forced to vote for genocide. The only people at fault for the democrats doing something as wildly unpopular as genocide, silencing anyone who said “You need to stop this if you want to win”, and reaping the effects of that policy being unpopular are the democrats.
I suspected that many of the accounts were Russian plants or Trump supporters trying to divide the Democrat vote. Most of the time when I checked account age they were made either that day or the day before.
I know that Lemmy is new and all but still was sus.
I haven’t gone back to accounts to see if they are still active. I suspect that they aren’t.
I actually disagree. I went through many of their comments and post histories. Looked alot like real people with one, devastating bad opinion.
Even worse, I think those Tankies really were just Tankies. They don’t want the USA to be fixed, they don’t care about creating actual socialism, they just want us all to off each other. I would get into discussions with those supposed purists abstaining from Kamala in democrat centric discussions and they almost always out themselves as another masked up Tankie talking about the USA as an evil empire that needs more destruction.
They’re still active now, too, trying to promote their version of “resistance” which is just more of the nation harming itself until nothing is left to oppose the CCP.
I suspect that what we saw here on lemmy were actual people who had been indoctrinated elsewhere.
Lemmy isn’t really big enough to be a target for bots and so on.
Bots are cheap to write. That’s naive to think there wasn’t a disinformation war going on with bots being on the forefront of it.
Calling it simplified does a disservice of the real world impacts of the “trolley” - especially since unlike a thought experiment - this trolley problem is physically constructed by people to achieve imperialistic goals - so expending energy blaming random lemmings for this - instead of figuring out who built, maintains and presents the trolley as the only option and how to dismantle it seems useless.
I believe we should avoid infighting and actually organize to do something so we don’t have to choose if we pull the lever or not every 4 years (if there even is another election…)
It’s almost like single-issue voters aren’t very good at logic problems…
The trolley problem is not a logic problem JFC. Every one of you gets an F in philosophy 101.
I find it scary how easily people where fine with having genocide on both sides of the ticket.
Not having a choice and being fine with with the choice you have are drastically different situations, and it’s concerning how many people are incapable of unwilling to tell the difference between the two.
I would argue the entire problem is the self-defeating mentality that the D vs R choice is the only choice. It’s in fact the population believing that - in itself - that results in the poor election outcomes for third parties. Something which was not true as recently as 30 years ago.
The population, in fact, has the option to vote for any candidate on the ballot, or even write in candidates. The so-called “viability” of third party candidates is a mental fiction. The “viability” only has to do with people’s willingness to vote for them, which, in a massive circular logic, is based on their perception that the rest of the population will not vote for them. That is the actual mechanism at play here (besides the truly brainwashed, faithful supporters of the two major parties, at least).
In fact, the entire U.S. constitutional system is only a tradition/custom, that we have the option to up and abandon when it no longer serves us. The reason we get stuck with it is the various state actors (cops, military) who do not understand that it’s not some sacred inviolable thing, or actually support it, and are willing to use violence on the population to enforce its implementation. What actually happens if the indoctrination of the entire population - Trump and Harris supporters and all - is undone, and we come up with a different, better vision for our society?
I would argue the entire problem is the self-defeating mentality that the D vs R choice is the only choice. It’s in fact the population believing that - in itself - that results in the poor election outcomes for third parties.
I’m not going to read the rest of your response, because you might as well be telling me that the person with the most points isn’t the one who wins the superbowl. Between that and what little I read of your second paragraph tells me you either don’t understand the system, or you don’t understand game theory when one side is always going to vote for their guy regardless of how criminal or openly fascistic he is.
It isn’t a self defeating choice that got us here it’s literally how the system was designed. You say it wasn’t like this 30 years ago, but I question how much you remember of the bush elections, because it’s worse, but this was the natural progression with a party who is pathologically against actual governance.
I’m not going to read the rest of your response,
Then don’t reply.
or you don’t understand game theory when one side is always going to vote for their guy regardless of how criminal or openly fascistic he is.
Humans are not robots. Anyone can vote for anyone. Their mindset at the time of voting is the only thing that determines their vote. Do notice how fixated people are on attacking third party voters with almost no influence over the election, instead of… 77 million? Trump voters, who decided the election. Have you tried unbrainwashing them at all? Like, tally up all the time you spent trying to influence people’s votes - what percent was aimed at Trump voters?
It isn’t a self defeating choice that got us here it’s literally how the system was designed.
It resulted from the design of the system + our society, but those two things are not mutually exclusive. Logical error.
The real world isn’t black and white, like in your morally superior fantasy. I hope your satisfaction lasts through the takeover of the nation, you shortsighted twat.
We are enjoying the fruits of constantly lowering our moral standards. We see more anger towards those who where critical of the genocide than those who needlessly insisted on perpetuating it.
You people act like you’re the only ones against the genocide. I’ve been against Israel and their crimes against humanity for fucking decades. Way before it was in vogue, and people would accuse me of antisemitism almost every time I’d try to educate them. However, I’m smart enough to know that my choices have more than ONE consequence, and sometimes you have to vote for the lesser of two evils.
That anger is deserved, did you read the image in this post?
That anger is extremely misdirected. You demand unity behind your political candidates, from people who refuse to support them on account of them seeing absolutely horrendous flaws that you refuse to see yourselves.
Why would a mass murderer deserve unity behind them, but a non-mass-murderer doesn’t? The fact that you’ve arrived at that conclusion at all demonstrates the absolutely bankruptcy of your political reasoning - the things that we’re trying to achieve with a social system in the first place are sacrificed. Human life, economic equality, quality of life, all of it.
You’ve lost sight of the entire goal. That’s the logic of drug addiction - chasing a high, diminishing returns, at the cost of your health. You’re continually investing in something which provides you worse and worse outcomes, and refusing to acknowledge alternate choices.
Any reasonable person could tell we had choice between Trump and Harris and we ended up with Trump.
No sane people were fine with it, but sane people have to live in the real world and not believe some fucking fantasy that there was another option at the time.
The democrats did have another option at the time.
We all did.
Let’s start with the very basic logic here. Let’s say 80, 90 million people come out and vote for, say, De la Cruz. Accounting for the electoral college and all that, enough to secure a victory. Is it not true that virtually all of us had the option to put a check next to her name, or write that name in? It is true. Is it true that we would have had a better outcome for the society with De la Cruz, than we would have with Harris or Trump? That is also true. So what - SPECIFICALLY - stopped this from happening.
Because I’ve never heard of De la Cruz, or any of the other third-party candidates that people keep espousing. And even if I had, my vote would be split among the other dozen candidates. That’s the fundamental problem with anyone left of the Democrat party - they’re not unified. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what would be best, everyone seems to have a different favorite candidate. Now all the votes that might have gone D are lost in the noise, while the R’s just fall in line like they always do.
How is it that I had heard of them months before the election, and you’re still catching up?
Back to the point I made elsewhere - the population is abdicating their responsibility to vote responsibly, that is the core problem here. Election came and went, and you didn’t even research the non-D/R candidates. As the saying goes, politics isn’t a spectator sport. Your approach is basically like going to a car dealership and asking them nicely to give the best deal. You gave up all your power at the door. You didn’t fight them on the random fees they threw into the price, you just went, well, at least it’s not the RAM dealership across the street. You didn’t look on Craigslist for used cars listed by sellers, you didn’t ask a mechanic what brand to get, nothing.
Cool, we remember - now what? What do we materially do now to resist that isn’t just blaming non-voters online?
Go protest, resist being part of that genocide by laying down work. Call or write your local representatives voice your opinion and ask how you can help to stop that.
Blaming other people and feeling superior is how Democrats win! Aren’t you paying attention? Hey, where are they taking us??!
Get ready to vote Dem really hard in 2028 /s
There aren’t many options… Which is probably why op is blaming non-voters, who are complicit in creating our current situation.
Which is probably why op is blaming non-voters
Should probably blame the people who actually voted for the guy and not an unrelated third party
Bunch of butthurt authoritarians whining about people they failed to engage and saying “but that’s the system we’re in” like that doesn’t apply equally to having to convince people to vote FOR you
Blaming both camps is the best way to go. But why spend efforts blaming the Trump voters? Presumably, they aren’t subject to appeals of logic or compassion or they wouldn’t have voted for him in the first place. So we know they’re pieces of shit. But the jury is still out on the protest non-voters. Did they fail to vote because they disagreed with kamala on a minority of her positions, or did they just not want to elect a brown woman? Assuming that they understood the choices of outcomes between candidates, they voluntarily chose to ignore the greater good for their own personal disagreement. Additionally, there’s evidence that if those protest voters had voted for Kamala she would have won. Therefore, they are to blame. To ignore that is to be an apologist for those at fault.
So, every hypothetical situation besides Trump winning, in the end, did not play out, due to the failure of the American population to mount a united opposition to Trump. Harris didn’t win, De la Cruz didn’t win, Stein didn’t win, West didn’t win, etc.
Now let’s focus on this question for two seconds, because I don’t think you all have ever actually addressed it. Putting aside the supposed “viability” as a reason for to vote for them - since that’s circular logic before the election has even happened. Putting that ASIDE. Of all the non-Trump candidates, who, in the seat of the Presidency, would have been the best candidate for the job? Who, sitting in that office, would have produced the best outcome for Americans, or the world as a whole?
I remember the BBC manufacturing consent for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris complicity genocide as well.
Interesting that such a fucked system exists that could allow the 50/50 chance that who wins an election could singlehandedly decide if everything is fascism and genocide or not, with what appears to be no real checks of power in place.
And you choose to blame those who have nearly no control over said system.
Lemmy is also a tiny community relative to other similar communities online. Lenmy is also not even just people in the US. You also don’t know how many of those posts were trolls or bots.
It sure seems to me that the larger system and set of choices are completely fucked to begin with and gives the “people” next to no options or say in much of anything.
But yes. If Lemmy people had not slammed Harris… then… something might have been… different?
That’s the thing American citizens/voters need to remember if/when we get past this term: Trump didn’t do this by himself. He was enabled and empowered by Republican (and a significant number of Democrat) members of legislation, as well as crooked judges across every level from state to Supreme. Trump will be kicked out and Republicans will say “Phew, that guy was a disaster! Right, guys? Good thing we all worked together and survived it.” And we can’t just let them do it; everyone currently serving in office from the GOP and 60% (if I’m being very generous to the remainder) of the Democrats should be barred from holding office again. Extend that to the judges too.
The GOP has worked hard to sew shite into every strand of the fabric that binds the nation together. And so insiduously that many idiots will stare at a shite-brown rag and say it’s still the same, ol’ Red, White, and Blue they remember.
The system is fucked but we exist within that system.
So, yes, if you were in front of the trolley lever, you’d remark “Wow, this system is fucked. Why do we even have trolleys? Shouldn’t they have brakes?”
…and then not pull the lever.
None of you crypto-nazis can be honest about this discussion. You keep lying and presenting the choice as between two unequally bad options. If anything the democrats have been objectively worse in hindsight. There would have been no ceasefire if you had your way.
Now that Trump is in office you want to put on your resistance hats again like we didn’t all just watch you rabidly support the genocide yourselves.
It was the same cease fire that was on the table months ago, the only difference was that Isreal was going to continue the genocide until it looked good for their choice of president. And they didn’t even honor it.
The idea that the zionists were conditionally doing genocide for a year just to make your political opponent look good is fucking insane. You’re extremely stupid for not recognizing the relationship between the US and israel gave Biden the ability to stop it any day he wanted as well.
I didn’t say that. I said they were going to SAY they were going to honor a cease fire to favor a certain President. They fully intended to continue the genocide unabated either way.
That cease fire was put forth under Biden’s watch and was “agreed to” right before the transition with the caveat that it was trumps team that succeeded. Do you not remember Biden getting raked over the coals for this when he was announcing it?
Real fucking annoying how you both completely sidestepped my point and doubled down on the shit you began your comment lying about not saying. So I’m just going to repeat myself. Maybe this time it will sink in.
You’re extremely stupid for not recognizing the relationship between the US and israel gave Biden the ability to stop it any day he wanted.
You keep lying and presenting the choice as between two unequally bad options.
This is why people disregard your opinions, because you lie and pretend that they weren’t unequally bad options.
They were both bad options, but saying they’re equal tells me you don’t pay attention or are intentionally lying.
You can hold that belief because you’re a white supremacist that doesn’t value Palestinian lives as human
You’re fucking hilarious.
Wanting to minimize harm by voting for someone I don’t want to because there’s a chance of working with them to further reduce harm means I’m a white supremacist that views an abhorrently persecuted population as non-human. Kamala and Biden weren’t running around saying the USA is going to take over Gaza and turn it into a resort. Trump is.
You play the hand you’re dealt - not the hand you wish you had my dude.
People voted for the least shit-covered sandwich, and you insinuate that we’re monsters? Lmaooooo
Pass whatever shit you’re smoking because it seems fun.
Wanting to minimize harm by voting for someone I don’t want to because there’s a chance of working with them to further reduce harm
You voted for someone who was committing a genocide. Fuck you.
Doubletalking nazi piece of shit.
Man I really wish you guys elected Harris or Joe Biden to sit back and watch this happen instead of talking about it openly, that would have been great for the Palestinians.
I’d rather have someone watch me fight a bear then have them help the bear by shooting me, and the rest of my family, repeatedly while I fight it. So yeah really would’ve been a lot better.
And by watch, I mean supply the bear with billions worth of bombs
I’m not the one that made the claim. I’m merely carrying on the anaolgy. Read what I replied to you jackwagon.
What the heck are you even on about? Did you reply to the wrong person?
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Man I really wish you guys elected Harris or Joe Biden to sit back and watch this happen…
This is you. You said this. You made the claim like mere minutes ago.
Watch this happen, as in: they wouldn’t have “managed” Gaza themselves, but helped Israel or something like the PA control it. Even if I actually claimed that, you are telling me you didn’t know the US was helping Israel when Biden was in office?
You made the claim. I continued by pointing out that the alternative is WAY worse using your same claim. Are you really this obtuse in real life? Or just on the internet?
Why are you quoting someone being objectively correct and dancing around like you won something? Have you spontaneously grown a brain and are now taking exception to the fact that the democrats are worse than ‘just watching’?
To clarify, I don’t think any of us are winning. They made the claim that Biden was just sitting and back and watching. I’m asserting, using their same claim, that the alternative is worse, while also making fun of the fact that watching someone fight a bear and not helping is objectively terrible. Do you really think this analogy makes Biden/the DNC out to be a great people?
It dishonestly presents them as being better people than they are
he only said this to distract from what Elmo is doing right now… the classified computers he’s taken over…
the fact that they’ve already begun reprogramming the treasury computer system, meaning they must have had illegal access to plan that well before trump was sworn in….
i don’t think trump will ever get the authority to occupy gaza and “relocate” all of them…What fucking world are you living on dude?
China really needs to start throwing their weight around on the global stage if they want to be anything more than a regional power.
China should be filling the vacuum on the global stage that the US is vacating.
China is just sitting back and letting the U.S. hang itself. They’ll step up and step in once America is well and truly down for the count.
edit: autocorrect
Can’t help but notice this. Turns out, the communist plot to destroy America was the billionaires we made along the way.
Marx did say that capitalism would produce its own gravediggers. This isn’t quite what he had in mind but…it’ll do I guess.
China already is extending their hand to places affected by USAID being shut down, I believe.
Everyone had this prediction that China would become the world’s number one superpower at some point, but I don’t know if people predicted that was because the U.S. shot itself it the face.
the hostile corporate takeover is in full effect in the USA. The downfall of America is happening in realtime at an accelerated rate. Capitalism will be the downfall of whatever democracy was left in the US.
Maybe after the Chinese authorian regime is done with the cleansing of the uyghurs, they take the place of the US and help Israel with the cleansing of Palestine
To be fair to the BBC, they’re ‘supposed’ to report the facts without judgement. How successful they are at that is debated endlessly, you can find anyone of any political flavour who will swear blind the BBC is ‘obviously’ biased against ‘them’. They can’t win no matter what they do.
See: More than 100 BBC staff accuse broadcaster of Israel bias in Gaza coverage
They’re not trying to be fair, they’re trying to be pro-israel.
Nah, I remember back when Corbyn was the leader of the Labour Party and the BBC gleefully participated in the campaign to slander him, including in a news program having as a background a large picture of him digitally altered to put a Soviet hood on his head.
I also remember countless “two side” discussions hosted by the BBC on things like worker rights or the Environment were they put a professional politician on the side against it facing a total amateur on the side for it.
The BBC’s “two sides” has always been a multi-layered propaganda format, starting by the small detail that any social and political subject which is not ridiculously simple has more than 2 options to interpret and tackle it - in other words, more than 2 sides - and going into the above mentioned point that their supposedly open “giving equal voice to both sides” is actually controlled by their choice of the subject matter, who represents each side and even the interviewer’s take on each side and accompanying materials (a typical example would be them reporting as event as “such and such happened” when the source is IDF versus “According to Hamas such and such happened” when the source is Hamas).
The BBC are very sophisticated in how they do it, but their output is heavily spinned and propagandistic.
That this is a very poor excuse at propaganda because the BBC goes out of its way to use “loaded terms” when it comes to adversaries of the empire.
Here is an example from yesterday. https://youtu.be/34Ta0IcQi-E?t=85
Impartiality goes out of the window when the BBC needs to remind everyone that “the Palestinian health ministry is ran by Hamas which is designated as a terrorist organisation in America, the UK and Europe” every single time the death toll in Gaza is brought up as well.
“The unprecedented attack on October 7th.” is here to justify Israel slaughtering tens of thousands of starving civilians.
of the empire.
I thought sun already set on that
They had a bazillion complaints (and still get them) that they report the figures at all and that they don’t treat Hamas being a terrorist organisation as a statement of fact. For a couple of weeks after the October the 7th attack, the reporting was more neutral, and the whole rest of the British press was up in arms about the BBC being antisemitic, and the current situation was the compromise that calmed it down. In a world where Israel having done nothing wrong ever is somehow part of the Overton window, this is what counts as impartial. Impartiality is a bad thing when it’s forced to apply to viewpoints divorced from reality.
Watch the video I linked if you are not convinced. I considered the introduction to be rather long so I timestamped over it. But it sounds like you might need to watch it from the beginning. The video is not about Hamas by the way. That is only another example.
The problem for the BBC is that not all stories have equally valid opposing views but they are forced to treat both sides equally at all times… So as the world drifts further and further to insanity, their reporting makes crazy positions seem legitimate as they have to be aired alongside more mainstream views.
It worked OK when the world was fairly stable and political positions were close together. It doesn’t work when political positions are so polarised and extreme.
Case in point: Brexit. The BBC really struggled in challenging extreme positions and outright lies during the brexit campaign.
Unfortunately though I’m not sure there is much alternative. Its fat from perfect but provably the best a public service broadcaster can try to do. At least it tries to provide the facts so people can make up their own minds - that in itself remains laudable.
One of the newsreaders said after leaving that they could easily find 60 economists willing to say brexit would be disastrous, and 1 saying it would be good. Come the show, they’d present one of each to demonstrate balance, but it was very lopsided. Before he went mental, they had Graham Linehan and his wife on a current affairs show to tall about the stress of getting an abortion in Ireland. The producers were then lambasted for not having a pro-abortion person on.
Although, IIRC, the original director general in his diary wrote “the government know they can trust us not to be truly impartial.” You never get Anarchists or Communists on discussion shows.
hey maybe they did. any anarchist & communist with a brain understands that the majority of people will have a knee jerk reaction and shut down if you utter the various trigger phrases (such as “anarchism/communism has some good points”). so they’d probably water down their beliefs for easier digestion
but if you mean an outspoken anarchist who gets invited to talk about anarchism then yeah you’re right, this isn’t happening unless for a joke or to make them a scapegoat
They’ve had Alexei Sayle and Will Self on question time, and they’re both pretty Hard Left, but while they criticise corruption and current affairs, never get to suggest anything hugely radical.
Definitely agree with you there. In an effort to appear balanced they try and present different sides of an argument as if they’re both valid. I guess that’s how Farage got on so much.
It’s not factual reporting when one side refuses to interact with the truth
I’m all for impartiality. But if a dude says “We should kill everyone who isn’t like me!” You don’t have to say “Before you judge, let’s hear his side.” You can start judging immediately.
They are not impartial on this one
If both ends of the spectrum are saying it, they’re probably threading the needle pretty well.
“Both the Palestinians and Israelis are saying they are being treated unfairly. This means we are treating both fairly”. - enlightened centrist after Biden refuses to send one shipment of 2000 pound bombs to Israel.
that is not sound logic
What should the BBC have done?
Factually state the implications of what Trump is saying, forcefully?
They don’t have to turn into a Fox opinion segment, they can just explain reality instead of blowing past it, then turning to talking heads.
I happen to have BBC News on just now. Besides factually reporting on what Trump said, over the past hour they’ve interviewed a number of people about the topic each offering different perspective. Many of them commented on what utter rubbish Trump’s statements were. I’d say BBC reporting on the topic has been factual, balanced and to a good standard I’d expect of them.
Good! I stand corrected.
It’s not really a news agency’s place to start guessing or claiming on what this might mean. They could report on people making that claim they, as they have done
The UN Secretary General’s spokesperson Stephane Dujarric has just previewed remarks that we are expecting this afternoon from Antonio Guterres, in response to President Donald Trump’s shocking plan for the US to take over Gaza.
On Gaza, Guterres will say that it is “vital to stay true to the bedrock of international law” and “essential to avoid any form of ethnic cleansing”.
Since Trump made his controversial Gaza remarks yesterday, some Democrats have taken to social media to condemn his comments.
Many have accused the Republican president of “promoting ethnic cleaning” for saying Palestinians should leave Gaza and settle elsewhere.
“It is horrific,” Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez told reporters, adding: “It is part of the culmination of what I view to be genocide of the Palestinian people.”
Use the term “Ethnic Cleansing” because that is literally the term which describes Trumps plan…
I don’t think it’s a new agency’s job to make such claims, but they have reported on people calling it that
The UN Secretary General’s spokesperson Stephane Dujarric has just previewed remarks that we are expecting this afternoon from Antonio Guterres, in response to President Donald Trump’s shocking plan for the US to take over Gaza.
On Gaza, Guterres will say that it is “vital to stay true to the bedrock of international law” and “essential to avoid any form of ethnic cleansing”.
Since Trump made his controversial Gaza remarks yesterday, some Democrats have taken to social media to condemn his comments.
Many have accused the Republican president of “promoting ethnic cleaning” for saying Palestinians should leave Gaza and settle elsewhere.
“It is horrific,” Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez told reporters, adding: “It is part of the culmination of what I view to be genocide of the Palestinian people.”
Watch: ‘Definition of ethnic cleansing’, Ocasio-Cortez says on Trump’s Gaza plan
Can’t say I see anything wrong with BBC’s actions here tbh.
So much for “never again,” eh? More like “whenever we feel like it” if trends in global hegemony are any indication.
