Due to the recent ban of a wolfballs.com-user for “Bigotry and racism on his main account on Wolfball.” it is requested that Lemmy.ml updates the Code of Conduct to reflect actual moderation. Please consider adding that Lemmy.ml will ban users for comments made with other accounts on other instances.
The ban has been reverted.
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”
And the dude next to me says, “hey i’m not doing anything, i’m a paying customer.” and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “out. now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, ‘oh damn.’ and he said “yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.
https://nitter.ca/IamRageSparkle/status/1280892535024619522#m
If I understand your story right, we should proactively ban people because their friends might violate rules in the future? It sounds similar to the story of Minority Report, but that was supposed to be a dystopia, not an inspiration to implement irl.
They’re the wolfballs admin, what’s not to get? Don’t be a lib.
So you ran out of arguments and try to insult me instead?
I don’t need to argue anything. Fuck fascists. If you’re an ML like you’ve stated in the past, you know why and don’t need me to explain to you why fascism is unacceptable and how they leverage liberal discourse to gain footing.
If you enable fascists to speak then what do you even stand for?
To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.
To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.
I don’t claim to be unbiased. I don’t claim to be fair. Because being unbiased and fair is for people who don’t have to worry about their own survival. LGBT people have already learned this lesson when we’ve been hunted down in the past. You gotta nip this shit in the bud before it takes root.
If you make this place a safe haven for these people, then it’s not safe for me or people like me, and I will treat it like radioactive waste.
You are proposing to change lemmy.ml rules so that users can be banned for activity on other sites. Your only argument for this rule change seems to be the claim that wolfballs.com is fascist. You havent shown any evidence to support this claim, and its far from obvious when browsing the site. So I dont see any justification for such a rule change.
For fucking racism, yes. Its better than what they deserve to be honest: a gun to the head.
If you’re an ML like you’ve stated in the past, you know why and don’t need me to explain to you why fascism is unacceptable and how they leverage liberal discourse to gain footing.
This is exactly why non-MLs look at half the commies and shake their heads. If all you scream is “fascist” and literally refuse to explain, then all we gather is “They call people they don’t like fascists”. Then commies get mad the rest of us “can’t see” the proper way.
To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.
How does this not counter your first point? If you don’t practice what you believe in when it actually matters, you don’t have beliefs, you have hobbies.
Edit: This thread has gone on for many comments. Read them for a laugh. Basically they never proved the original guy is racist, only got increasingly frustrated. Which is honestly surprising, since I believe the guy is probably a racist PoS, but all I asked for was proof of it.
I have literally linked to where the guy is being racist and seanchai has quoted his homophobic and transphobic remarks. It’s plain as day. I’m calling this shit out because it makes me feel unsafe to be here as a queer person.
Also, how do you not know what a dogwhistle is?
Just for transparency, I was the one who banned them. In my personal opinion, I still think the ban was appropriate, but because someone who outranks me reversed it and has told me their rationale, I’m conceding the issue.
Well, that’s something that needs to be resolved, sooner is better than later, or it will lead to more drama later. Are you using your staff position to enforce personal opinions/preferences, or are you taking the role of a moderator enforcing site rules?
The 4 site rules here (especially #2) seem clear to me that people shouldn’t be banned merely for their supposed personal opinions, or what they do elsewhere.
Are you using your staff position to enforce personal opinions/preferences, or are you taking the role of a moderator enforcing site rules?
The latter. I thought the rules were such that they should be banned. How I want the instance to be moderated (i.e. rule changes) is another question and something I’ll take up with the other admins.
I think it could be an opportunity to clarify some of the rules. I’ve made a post on /c/meta about clarification of the term ‘leftist’ for example, because the vagueness can easily lead to reasonable, avoidable conflict.
I agree that “leftist” is too vague, but I also havent heard any better idea how this instance could be described.
Well, how do the admins here define ‘leftist’?
That’s actually a major part of my post. We can’t recommend a better idea without knowing your own definition because ‘leftist’ is just so ambiguous. That’s why it’s a problem. If I know how you define it, I can suggest a few alternatives.
I think that’s still a valid reason for banning even if it’s not explicitly in the rules. If wolfballs were federated with lemmy.ml, the user’s main account would certainly be banned from this instance, and setting up another account on lemmy.ml would be seen as ban evasion, causing the new account to also be banned. So it makes no sense to not ban their account just because lemmy.ml blocks wolfballs and thus had no opportunity to ban their main account; in fact it makes negative sense because now we’re letting someone use our instance because their behavior was so unacceptable that we blocked their instance.
My recommendation would be to avoid the drama and hassle of inter-instance policing and simply undo that ban.
Next would be banning people for content on entirely different platforms. Say something objectionable on YouTube? Banned!
But I am guessing this must have something to do with managing Federated content. Was his other account getting pulled in somehow through the banned account?
Next would be banning people for content on entirely different platforms.
I think that’s the situation Salamander is arguing against. And I support him. But I also support that every instance should be able to moderate and administrate how they see fit - That’s why I, as a user on a different instance, don’t care about the ban itself.
But with the shared nature of federation, quite a few of the communities I interact with are on lemmy.ml. I’d very much like to know the rules so I don’t break them, or if I find that I don’t agree with them - so I can find or create other places to participate, instead of trying to change the fundamentals of already existing communities or instances.
Ten $ of bitcoin to anyone who can show me an actual racist post made by him. I have not seen him say anything racist and he also told Nazis they aren’t welcome on wolfballs. Just an observer.
which user is this about btw?
ah, the wolfballs admin
Not that anyone found an example, but 10$ costs more than a shitcoin transaction fee
40$
Codes of conduct are stupid. AFAIK it wasn’t a very common thing among software projects before a few years ago and they are only supposed to apply to the developers ethics and not the platform as a whole.
Also premetive banning is super shitty and a total reddit move. If they’re as shitty as you say it won’t be long before they’re banned across the federation.
This is just my opinion:
Inssently promoting an instance that is very explicitly against our rules, is also against our rules. It would be way less of an issue and way more a grey area (IMO) if they weren’t constantly plugging Wolfballs as the main admin and was just posting like most other users, but it’s clear that the only purpose of their Lemmy.ml account is to do that (which could also qualify as blogspam BTW but we’ve let that slide a lot for promoting other instances). If an account is constantly promoting an instance as the head admin of that instance, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to take mod actions based on their activity on that instance, because what they’re saying on their account here is essentially that they think their content over there is good, that they endorse it, and want people to keep posting stiff in that vein.
To be clear, it’s okay for an admin on another instance to have an account here, it’s also okay to promote your instance here as long as you don’t cross over into spam territory. But if you do the latter, I don’t think it’s an overstep for us to go over to your instance and check the content you post there, and see if the instance being promoted (indirectly by us as well, since we’re the admins) is consistent with our own rules. This would apply for other platforms, yes. We’re not going to hunt down your YouTube channel and inspect it, but if you promote your YouTube channel and one can immediately find racist/bigoted content there, that is indeed grounds for removal of the post, inssently promoting that channel will get you banned.
There is already precedent for this, mostly related to pornography. Where if you post a site and easily accessible from your link are pornography, especially if what you posted is the homepage, that entire post is considered NSFW and will get removed. Two examples from way back are posts to a fanfiction site and an anime site (not posts to a specific page btw, but advertising the sites in general), and immediately accessible on the sites were tags and links to pages relating to pornography and critically, sexualization of minors. Both were removed as soon as we found out. We didn’t particularly care if the poster agreed with those things or not. They were there, and they’re against our rules.
@coldhotman@nrsk.no, @Salamander@mander.xyz, @sxan@midwest.social
Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning despite not owing us an explanation. I suppose one of the “cons” of a transparent modlog is that we only get to see the final output without getting the full picture, making it easy to get the wrong impression.
Good! Thank you for the effort. It is important to set a clear boundary and ban users/communities/instances/… if they attempt to cross it.
But the Klingon empire might allow them for a bit longer.
Nah they’d just chop off their heads for disrespecting them.
Removed by mod
I think that was pretty obvious from my previous comment.
