One guy wants to work on Civil rights, taxes, and social services.
The other guy wants to jail anyone who said mean things about him, suspend the constitution, and immediately apon being sworn in use the military to institute the insurrection act and declare martial law.
Centralists: BuT bOtH sIdEs!!!
As someone who was centrist: you can’t be centrist when one person is motivated by spite to tear it down. You aren’t a centrist anymore. You’re an accessory.
Liberals are always the first to fall in line with fascists - the first regional governments of the Nazis in Germany was supported by libertarians and pro-economy-parties, a couple of years ago. 3 years ago the Neo-Liberal party in Thuringia accepted to govern as a minority-government when the only party supporting them was the far-right AfD with a leader that you can legally call a fascist and that is under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz for being a danger to democracy.
The CDU (moderate-conservative party) in Germany also won’t work with either the left party nor the AfD but their local politicians are already getting very close with the AfD.
If someone’s claiming “both sides” in a political issue that’s usually a sign that they won’t oppose the fascists when they try to grab the power
At the end of the day, someone who sees both sides as the same is saying they don’t care about LGBT people or abortion rights or ethnic minorities. It’s impossible to care about them and still believe the two parties are close enough that it won’t matter who wins.
Doesn’t matter if they’re a self described communist or crony capitalist. Scratch them and a fascist will bleed.
Liberals are always the first to fall in line with fascists
“Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds” is how the saying goes. In the US right now there is no real left political force, despite there being many individual leftists. The one thing the political system has done there above all is remove all impediments for capitalism to flourish. That goes back to the Populist movement and Jim Crow order, Eugene Debs, the Taft-Hartley act, removing any notion of class analysis from academia. Now you have the choice between how you want capitalism to be branded basically, is it Democrat happy everything is fine capitalism, or GOP get rich or die capitalism, but it’s bootstrap policy all the way down.
Not in the US but I kind of apply this to the Democratic party itself. Obviously they aren’t outright fash-branded like this GOP faction and strategically voting for them is like a forced thing at this point, but they are objectively a center-right party, and I believe the economic policies they promote are in effect an accessory to the GOP’s. What’s more is Democrat PACs actually give money to run ads on behalf of the most fash GOP primary candidates as part of a strategy to get them easier opponents, and it’s worked before, but it also directly enables that faction to gain more ground over multiple election cycles. Like Hillary wanted to run against Trump, they helped him get the nomination, how funny would that be if the GOP had Trump as a candidate, they’d be a laughingstock!
I feel like this whole thing is a downward spiral with two factions that aren’t really even offering economic alternatives at this point because the neoliberal market based “freedom” is basically consented too. It’s like do you want the happy Democrat branding of this or the fashy GOP branding while it all spirals out of control.
“Literally can’t tell them apart.”
also everyone on Hexbear.net
I generally give Republicans more benefit of the doubt than most. I consider myself a liberal libertarian with an open mind to all things. I think there were plenty of valid reasons to vote for Trump the first time around, reasons that much of the country chose to ignore because it was easier than addressing them.
If the GOP nominates Trump again, they deserve to lose as hardcore as possible. I didn’t scream and cry when he was elected because I was willing to give him a chance and an open mind. But I think his first term said everything that needed to be said about his suitability as a leader. He talked a big talk of draining the swamp, but then filled his cabinet with alligators and no swamps were drained. If anything, swamps were created as he filled key positions with corrupt people who were loyal to him but had little experience or skill for the job at hand.
Love his policies or hate them, that’s just corrupt bad government. And while I don’t always agree with Biden’s policies, much like Obama, he at least executes the duties of his office in a relatively competent manner.
Same thing if DeSantis gets the nomination. You can’t run a platform of jobs creation when you pick a hissy fit with your state’s largest employer because they dare voice some mild opposition to a policy of yours (especially when said opposition is essential for said company to maintain credibility on the national level). That speaks volumes about the kind of person, and the kind of leader, that you are. I would rather have someone who’s policies I sometimes disagree with, then a childishly vindictive psychophant sitting in the big chair.
Sadly, this all is the very predictable result of the Karl Rove strategy- whip up social conservatives and evangelicals to drum up votes. The result is those groups now have significant power within the GOP, even though their platform of intolerant policies is unappealing to the broader nation to the point of making them unelectable in the eyes of many.
I think there were plenty of valid reasons to vote for Trump the first time around
If you knew anything about Trump you would not have thought this.
Nuance is a thing.
I said there were plenty of valid reasons to vote for Trump. For example, if you wanted American manufacturing, the idea of a tariff on Chinese goods was appealing. If you favor border security he was your guy. If you favor gun rights Hillary sure as fuck wasn’t for you. Etc etc.
And overall- Hillary was a very ‘middle of the road status quo’ candidate and the nation wanted real reform. Trump represented change- perhaps not good change, but change.
Not arguing the merits of any of those points. Just saying if you want those things, his platform was the more appealing one.Following him would reveal plenty of good reasons NOT to vote for him also. Dishonesty, misogyny/sexual harassment, tax evasion, borderline racism, and a lot of his rhetoric felt a little too close to Hitler’s for my taste.
Personally I didn’t vote for him- I voted 3rd party (in my solid blue state of CT, my vote doesn’t matter either way). But I could understand why people did, and I had hopes- I hoped that either when he won the primary or the general the ‘yuuuge!’ personality would go away and the intelligence a lot of people claim he has would emerge, and we’d be left with, if not a true statesman, someone approaching a mature adult who would get to work solving the nation’s challenges.
As it stands, what we got was pretty close to what his critics had claimed would happen- a Presidency full of scandals and corruption, with his own loyalists placed in key positions they were wholly unqualified for. And from what I’ve read, it was widely known in foreign intelligence circles that if you wanted him on your side, just book a few million bucks worth of boondoggles at mar-a-lago and kiss his ass a few times and he’d be your buddy. Obviously not what we need in a President.
But that’s all my point. Going into it, there were valid reasons for wanting him. Now, there may still be desirable items on his agenda, but he’s proven himself ineffective at implementing any of those items. So now, this time round, I’d say if you vote for him (especially in the primary) you’re a moron because you’re putting forward someone Biden’s almost certainly gonna crush, who was disappointing the first time around and arguably treasonous.
What I mean is Trump is a known liar and conman. Anyone who knew anything about Trump knew he was lying out of his ass, and wouldn’t do anything he promised.
Honestly part of the reason I gave him benefit of doubt is a few conversations I had with someone who worked extensively on a real estate project with Trump They said Trump did some slightly underhanded shit that screwed some people over, but it was obvious he had a very sharp mind and was thinking far ahead of anyone else at the table; that the ‘yuuge’ personality was a smokescreen to look stupid so people didn’t realize how truly sharp he was. The person I spoke with lost some opportunities as a result of Trump’s underhanded operations, but ended up with strong respect for the guy as a businessman and a leader. The person felt that if Trump used his capabilities on behalf of the nation, we’d all benefit.
I was hoping we’d see in the White House some glimmer of what the person I spoke with saw in the real estate deal. Unfortunately we did not. Or if we did, it was only in service of Trump, not in service of the nation.
And while Trump may be a known liar and a conman, when the opponent is quoted as saying you have to have a public and a private position on issues (in other words, lie and tell people what they want to hear) it’s hard to worry too much.
Had Biden been the nominee he’d almost certainly have beaten Trump. Or Bernie, he’d have done well.So the guy gets fucked over by Trump, and thinks that’s a good quality? He’s an idiot.
Step past your hatred of the guy and look for some nuance my friend.
The person I spoke with didn’t like Trump, but admired Trump’s sharp mind and strategic brain that could out-think a lot of very smart people. Their belief was that Trump is sharp as a tack but just pretends to be an idiot so people underestimate him.
Being the smartest guy in the room, being able to come to a negotiation and sweep the board when nobody sees it coming is never a bad quality for a President. THAT is what they respected-- the ability to do that to a bunch of very smart people.
Trumps genius is in his ability to sell himself. The guy got bamboozled by a known fraud, conman, and narcissist.
It’s not like he came out of nowhere, his bombastic dishonesty was no secret, and he made it crystal clear during the campaign that he had nothing to do with honesty and truth.
While I hoped he would change his tune when he became president, and held out hope there, it should have come to zero surprise that he is who has always been and giving him the “benefit of the doubt” was being extremely generous, if not outright naive.
Anyone giving Trump any sort of benefit of the doubt even in 2016 could only generously be described as extremely ignorant. Trump had even at the time an extremely proven track record, and all of us proclaiming doom and gloom if he got elected were proven right over and over. The only surprise from any of this is that he didn’t start a war and instead just managed to create enough instability to lead us where we are now with Israel/Palestine and especially Russia/Ukraine. Like, there was a lot of us telling everyone exactly what was going to happen in 2016, whether that was Roe, the racist immigration shit, the threat of a pandemic, the growing wealth inequality, his ability to handle something like Hurricane Maria, etc. We knew he was a rapist then. We knew he was a conman then. He had already mocked the disabled, military families, called hispanics murderers, rapists and drug dealers. He already and still maintained the Central Park Five, who’d long been exonerated, should have been put to death. Fuck’s sake the only reason he started running basically was because he got a lot of attention for the birther bullshit which tbh wasn’t even a dog whistle and he might have just as well had a klan hood on during that whole thing.
I’m not sure if it’s more an indictment of the media, the education system, or just Republicans working for generations to do exactly what they have that literally anyone could give him the benefit of the doubt.
Even in this very thread, we’re doing their work for them. Biden’s been a fairly successful president by most normal metrics, and the only thing the media (and half of this thread) want to talk about is that he’s old. Meanwhile, Trump is actually, routinely now showing that he’s losing his faculties and he’s a spry 3 years younger with the diet of a frat party at 2am and the exercise regimen of a russet potato, but yes, let’s really dissect if Biden’s putting out an international fire fast enough as if the alternative in Trump wouldn’t be literally to throw matches and gas at the problem.
Don’t disagree with any of that.
The person I spoke with was so impressed because he (and the others in the deal) were specifically protecting themselves against any Trump shenanigans, but the way Trump changed the whole plan showed he was thinking many steps ahead of them.But he turned out to be a one trick pony- his trick is screwing over everybody (perhaps in very clever ways) to boost his own power and wealth. The whole selfless part where he does it for the good of the nation, that never happened.
One guy wants to work on Civil rights, taxes, and social services.
Well, he says he does.
Better than the other guy who wants to “root out the leftist vermin.”
I fully expect the Democrats to have both houses for a year and accomplish nothing.
It depends by how much. If it’s a thin majority, I imagine it will be like it is for Republicans this time around (hamstrung by the loud minorities within your party with an axe to grind). If it’s a solid majority, I think we’d actually see some good changes.
Given what appears to be reflexive party line filibuster with no limits, they’re not doing much legislatively without either a supermajority or a dozen or so Republicans who decide to be constructive or to do things for their constituents.
Remember that historically there was usually at least some crossing the aisle. If you were the guy bringing over the vote to make or break, you have a lot of say over details
Sure, and they will once again scapegoat a couple individuals knowing most people don’t pay enough attention to to know it’s like 30 in the House and 8-10 in the Senate who are gladly blocking anything meaningful.
Centrists always find enough turncoats to vote with Republicans.
That’s something that needs to happen in a really obvious way. All those scapegoats need to be on full display - especially if they changed their previously stated views. Then maybe people will start understanding they need to actually show up to their fucking primaries if they want to make any effective progress in the future.
All these comments about “letting it all burn down” are just long-term reinforcing the idea that status quo centrists are the best candidates to run against fascists. Progress won’t happen until people vote in primaries.
I prefer to take a more skeptical view, rather than a cynical one
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I love how you didn’t even pretend that his stated views are sincere, and just dropped to “not trump.”
C’mon, you knew that was going to happen when you posted it. That’s what always happens when you say anything remotely critical of the left on the internet (well at least lemmy and Reddit)
Idk why people can’t accept that it’s possible for both sides to suck ass, even if one is worse. The right being worse doesn’t make the left good, just better.
I’ll vote for Biden, but you can lick my ass if you want me to pretend to be happy as I do it.
C’mon, you knew that was going to happen when you posted it. That’s what always happens when you say anything remotely critical of the left on the internet (well at least lemmy and Reddit)
I wasn’t being critical of the left. I was being critical of Democrats.
How about we give Biden credit for things he actually does, instead of more campaign promises he certainly won’t follow through on?
Day 1 agenda voting rights act, never happened. Locked in Trump corporate tax reductions. Has always wanted to plunder social security and abandon the program. Literally drools at the opportunity to “compromise with republicans” to achieve this feat. He’s a moron, the world’s worst negotiator, or the perfect lapdog of the ruling elite - take your pick, but he’s sure as shit not FDR 2.0.
This is who Biden is, so when you proudly vote against the bad orange man (a fascist wannabe tyrant to be sure), know who you’re voting for
You make a great point.
Follow-up question, after 2020 what steps did you take to ensure or at least influence the available choices you would have in the coming 2024 election? Did you write your local comparative left-leaning parties, presumably including the Democrats, directly to voice your dissatisfaction and interest in more genuinely progressive or leftist party platform policies or policy makers? Or did you work with a better suited third party to increase their viability through community canvasing and outreach programs? Did you start talking with others in your community in the beginning stages of starting a bid for candidacy yourself to be the change you want to see directly? Not to be rude, I mean that genuinely, but did you do anything other than complain online, maybe in a few conversations in real life as well?
Because here’s the thing, your criticism is absolutely both correct and valid. But we are now a year before the election, well into the primary season. If you haven’t actually done anything to make the situation better, then you’re kind of armchair quarterbacking critiques about the playbook of a game that is already in half-time. I’m sorry to be this blunt, but you missed the window. I truly hope you do get involved and care enough to make sure a terrible candidate like Biden isn’t the only viable option in the future, but the time to start putting in the work to ensure a decent candidate appears on the 2028 ballot is today.
Make no mistake, it is absolutely terrible and miserable that campaign cycles are so long and that the political system is so practically impenetrable that we have to waste so much time on this shit and think long-game like this. Fucking miserable situation. But that’s how it is. No amount of standing on principle or taking the easy way out by abstaining and blaming the consequences on others will change that. It sucks. I hate it too. But that’s how it is. The reality is that Joe Biden is a shitty candidate but if you are even halfway decent you understand the alternative is objectively worse in almost every measurable way. Yes, voting for the lesser of two evils is terrible bullshit. But when you can’t solve a problem outright, wisdom is prioritizing harm reduction. The choice is obvious.
But seriously, start fucking work today making sure we aren’t right back here again in 2028.
edit: to be clear, I don’t know you, and I understand that you may genuinely be involved already. I’ll admit I am speaking in generalities to a broader audience than to you personally, and do apologize for any presumptions I have made about you in doing so.
Day 1 agenda voting rights act, never happened.
Biden can sell it all he wants but the Legislature has to pass it
Locked in Trump corporate tax reductions.
Responsibility of the legislature
Has always wanted to plunder social security
We do need to deal with that election hasn’t in the room. We can’t control the deficit without controlling the biggest parts of the budget. More importantly, it’s sort of like climate change where the earlier you address it the easier it will be but at some point becomes too late to prevent serious repercussions
opportunity to “compromise with republicans”
He did campaign on trying to bring things back together, work together for the good of the country. I give the guy credit for trying more than I would have
You forgot people who are clutching their pearls over Biden’s support of Israel and calling him a fascist because of it.
Some people aren’t as happy with genocide as you think they should be.
Who said anyone was happy about that? Biden made the wrong choice. But to wring your hands and pretend you’ll have a choice that isn’t Trump or Biden next November is completely ignorant of how elections work in the US.
It may not be Trump or Biden, but it will certainly be regressive shitheel or Biden. This is not a pro-Biden statement, just reality.
Biden made the wrong choice.
Yes. He did. Choices can lose you votes. Demanding them doesn’t get them back. Pointing out the other option and being like “he’s worse now shut up and be happy” doesn’t do it either.
I prefer Biden to Trump. I’ll vote for him. But I accept the reality that “not Trump and shut up” isn’t good enough for some people. People whose votes we need. The options for the country are very likely gonna be Trump or Biden.
But as far as I see it, the options for the Democratic Party are as follows: Do better or lose.
I’m worried that they’re not willing to change at all and would prefer to lose, even if that means Trump again.
Really because the ones I see not changing are the white cynics who are so high on their privilege that they seriously need it explained to them why “not trump” is fucking good enough no other explanation needed. Especially after Dobbs.
Fuckin’ white self proclaimed revolutionaries talk a shitton about solidarity then don’t waste a second to demand bribes for theirs soon as literally the bare minimum gets asked for to vote just so fucking Caligula Jackson doesn’t get to strip everyone else’s rights more.
Fuckers throw Letters from Birmingham around like gospel and do no self reflection about MLK being up to his limit with white folks who swear they’re for civil rights then don’t do any of the work to advance the cause.
He is also walking a tight rope attempting to defuse it. He got the border open with Egypt and humanitarian aid in. He got “humanitarian pauses” in place of a cease-fire because Bibby won’t allow it.
You don’t need to walk a tightrope on genocide. We give them the weapons they use to kill civilians and shield them from international consequences. We’re not an uninvolved party trying to influence an equal, we have power.
That’s an absurdly simplistic view that you can only afford to have because there are no consequences to you having it. Were you actually in charge and had briefings explaining the complex history and political situation then you’d very likely find yourself realising it’s not as simple as you wish.
“We’re acting like Republicans on this because the situation is just too complex for your puny mind to comprehend.” - Centrists, about every fucking thing.
Both want to enthusiastically support and fund genocides.
Also the “centrists” of American politics are who mostly support Biden.
No…no we don’t. The centrists are looking at the US and know we are fucked. We stopped pretending politics matter after Bush stole his first election and Obama couldn’t come through with universal healthcare.
It’s because politics matter that Obama couldn’t pull it off. Obamacare was what he could pull off with exactly 60 senators, before deaths dropped the number. If we wanted to have universal healthcare, we needed to expand our numbers in Congress.
Instead, apathetic voters led to a huge conservative victory, and made it impossible for universal healthcare to happen.
There’s a very important lesson here. Not voting for a Democrat in the general election because you wanted them to go further with their policy doesn’t get you those improvements. Instead, it gets Republicans to win and drive policy in the exact opposite direction.
And therein is the vicious cycle of voter apathy. The gridlock and status quo of the Obama years was because voters didn’t show up in 2010. They didn’t show up because they wanted more accomplishments, which required more senators. And voters who were too apathetic to vote in even 2008 caused that.
And your excuses for Biden are?
50/51 Democrat senators with 2 conservatives?
Then who does? Conservatives don’t. Hardly anyone left of center does…
He’s just getting the not Trump vote…and in 4 years when nothing changes, the next D will promise all these sweeping social things that somehow never manifest.
I’ll eat a shit ton of new tastes for their inaction though.
Ya. Ignore the genocide. And the strong history if being against gay marriage and abortion. And the doing nothing to address the codification of Roe v Wade. And the standing against cannabis legalization so we can keep jails full of peaceful poor people.
Why would anyone have reservations against voting for that guy.
And the doing nothing to address the codification of Roe v Wade
What exactly do you think the president can do about that?
Wave his magic wand, clearly.
He is the leader of the nation.
I dont know, lead your party, address the nation, inspire the people.
You know, the same way Obama made Obama care happen.
Instead Biden hid under a rock for 3 years before comin’ out blazing to keep a genocide going and campaign for reelection.
You know, the same way Obama made Obama care happen.
… Obama made Obamacare happen based on an overwhelming election victory leading to a (tenuous and temporary) 60-vote majority which allowed him, over the course of months of negotiation to deliver an extremely watered down version of just his main campaign promise, the one, focused policy that he unambiguously emphasized more than any other policy.
I don’t say this as condemnation of Obama. I say this as ‘what the fuck do you think Biden is working with in comparison’? What’s his one goal that he should be working towards? What’s his supermajority? What did his election victory look like? Approval numbers?
Okay.
So if Biden can’t do shit because of congress, why will Trump be able to do anything?
We have troves of proof that Red congresspeople are only able to cannibalize themselves and smear shit on the walls of the Capitol.
If a US president can’t achieve anything because of congressional incompetence, why is Trump even a threat?
Jesus idjit. Use your brain for once in your life.
Because Biden isn’t trying to implement Project 2025 to make the executive branch into a dictatorship.
So if Biden can’t do shit because of congress, why will Trump be able to do anything?
Because the GOP wants to do fucking dogshit things. Did you miss the whole “2017-2021” period or fucking something? ‘Obamacare’ was within one vote of being repealed, and only survived because a cancer victim had a last-minute crisis of fucking conscience.
hid under a rock for 3 years
I happen to enjoy not seeing multiple deranged tweets at 2 am from the president that cause nothing but chaos.
In a similar vein, I happen to enjoy a president fighting to push forward infrastructure and green energy funding despite a 0-vote majority and two wolves-in-sheeps-clothing included in that.
Fuck, I don’t need to be reminded of that trauma…I enjoy the fact that he has a contractual obligation to solely use his dumb Twitter clone
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Which genocide is it that TransplatedSconie supports that would have been countered by “multiple deranged tweets at 2 AM from the president that cause nothing but chaos”?
I don’t know
Could’ve stopped there
You know, the same way Obama made Obama care happen.
This is a fantastic example. Obama started the term with 60 senators, and Obamacare was the most left thing they could pass. To get them better policy, they needed more senators so they could bypass the Manchins.
Except, voters were apathetic. So Democrats lost big time. It led to gridlock in Congress and solidified a status quo where you had to compromise with Republicans to get anything to happen.
And voters were apathetic about that. And Trump was elected.
The way we make Obamacare and better happen are crushing Republicans in the polls. Not bemoaning how things could be better. Because staying home has only made this country move further and further right.
And the strong history if being against gay marriage and abortion.
And following this “strong history”, I’m sure he appointed a pro-life Justice to the Supreme Court and vetoed the Respect for Marriage Act.
Oh wait, no he didn’t.
And the doing nothing to address the codification of Roe v Wade
Please identify the pro-choice majority in Congress that you’re apparently confident existed at some point since January 2021. I’ll wait.
And the standing against cannabis legalization so we can keep jails full of peaceful poor people.
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/presidential-proclamation-marijuana-possession
Biden actually pardoned all federal convicts of marijuana possession. You can apply online at this link if you know anyone. He also began the process for re-classifying marijuana as Schedule III, though there’s a lot of bureaucracy to get through so that’s slow.
Because Trump will definitely not support Israel and be very supporting of LGBT+ people, abortion and drug legalization.
All of that definitely sounds like Trump. Who is also not a Nazi.
Why would anyone have reservations against voting for that guy.
You think voting for Trump or not voting will help those issues?
I think not voting for fascists takes the wind out of fascist sails. Yes.
You think actual fascists give a shit about your vote?
Actual fascists, historically, work to strongly depress voter turnout, because the illegitimization of democracy is a core component of the ideology.
In a two-party, winner-take-all system, not voting will just help Trump. Trump will be detrimental to your cause compared to Biden.
There’s no cause here. Only dissatisfaction spun into a sense of disaffected superiority.
Yeah, nothing like taking your dissatisfaction to the next level with a second Trump presidency.
Don’t worry, they’ll just use the opportunity to say “Well, the Democrats won’t be any better. I’ll just not vote in the Trump Dynasty Monarchy Referendum”
Because the alternative is Fascism.
“Second worst to fascists” isn’t the win Democrats seem to think it is.
He is fascist too.
Neo-progressives are fascist too.
America has once again reached the end of its “lesser evil” rope, and its just 2 fascist mobs screaming at each-other.
Words have meaning. Please define “fascist” and demonstrate how Biden is one.
I want to argue semantics now.
I mean this honestly, and not attacking you in any way. But I’m incredibly intrigued as to how you believe The Biden administration is fascist as well. And again I’m coming from a place of just wanting to understand, not attacking you.
Fascism is when I don’t like foreign policy, and the more foreign policy I don’t like, the fascist-r it is.
You need to quit fucking lying.
I’m dead ass speaking truth.
You need to break your conditioning.
Bullshit. Objective reality exists, and Biden isn’t a fascist. You are not entitled to make shit up.
More to the point, you are not entitled to spread fascist propaganda (your concern trolling is obviously designed to help Trump). You are anti-American scum and you are not welcome here, or anywhere.
Biden has adopted key plays from the fascist handbook and you are not allowed to ignore that.
How many times do I need to clarify?
My vote goes to neither, and I won’t allow you to take my truth from me to say I support someone I don’t.
The 2 party system is critically failing all of us, and I am done supporting it. EITHER SIDE.
I put my stat into the “fuck man, I’m disenfranchised” bucket.
Stop being like a fascist and misrepresenting my truth in the light of your owner.
His SAVE program for Student Loans is fucking incredible. It dropped a crippling payment down to $32 a month. He may be old, but that has really helped me. I support him completely.
Yeah but why couldn’t have Biden done that already!?!?!?! Guess I gotta vote 3rd party now to show how strong my moral character is so I can pat myself on the back as the world burns fake tan orange around me.
The SAVE program is already in effect, you can apply on the StudentAid.gov website. What you’re probably thinking of is the Student Loan Forgiveness Plan, which was sued by conservative State Attorneys causing a delay until at least a year later.
Soooo he bought your vote, gotcha.
“This candidate did something that made life so much easier for now that I’m not swimming in borderline crippling debt”
“Hmmmm so he bought your vote then, sheep”
Conversely, Biden supported the 2005 bill that made student loan debt nearly impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. I know this isn’t a popular opinion around these parts, but the terms of these loans weren’t a secret, picking and choosing who to relieve of them via the public coffers is akin to attempting to buy votes. He should have capped interest rates for all existing loans and worked for future reform so this doesn’t remain a problem.
So you want to perpetuate a bad decision from nearly 20 years ago instead of doing anything to modify or address it now?
Did you read the last sentence of my reply? I made a specific suggestion at a non targeted approach and suggested addressing the root of the problem. Biden’s actions bellie his motives.
Republicans have been eating up that tax break trickle down bullshit for decades even though they don’t see a dime of it. Biden does something that directly benefits the economic reality of the working class and you want to shame people for liking it?
Benefits the economic reality of SOME of the working class. It just so happens he’s courting those voters, and in this case successfully traded taxpayer’s funds for support. It’s not less wrong when you personally like the outcome.
Oh so it’s not perfect and doesn’t help everyone’s situation so it’s wrong and not good at all?
It helps people, it’s good.
In favor of eliminating AMT, inheritance tax and cutting the top marginal rate then? Those will only help a small subset of people, but people will be helped all the same. Or is it not THOSE people? Presumably those are the people you intend to get the money from to give as loan forgiveness. That hurts those people so it’s bad right? Maybe Joe is hurting the people he’s supposed to in this case so it’s good?
He improved people’s lives, so they want to support him. Is that the same thing as a tax cut for businesses and the ultra-wealthy (the only significant thing Trump achieved)?
Essentially, yes. Don’t take this as an endorsement, Trump was likely the worst president this country has ever seen, truly a national embarrassment, but he (really they) lowered individual taxes for most wage earners also (temporarily). You can’t really rail on republican stupidity, immorality, selfishness etc. if we’re all just going to vote as currency in trade. Funny how Randian people become when their selfish want is being fufilled.
Doing good things is good, actually.
Cut my taxes, right? Cancel welfare programs, public social and health services so I’m not paying for some deadbeats!
That more your speed??
He’d be fucked. I guarantee he’s a deadbeat living with mom.
I think you’ve got me pegged wrong. You can’t cut my taxes, the country spends 2 trillion dollars more than it takes in every year. I believe universal health care is the only way out of the cost spiral. This country faces crises on multiple fronts and most of them worsen every day. But do tell how a narrowly targeted loan forgiveness is in the general public’s interest versus more broad reform. Then do PPP loans.
What exactly is your criterion or are your criteria for supporting a politician if “he does want I want” isn’t one of them?
In Biden’s case, the criterion is he’s not Trump. Otherwise, he’s a shitheel politician, always has been. He does like to tout his bonafides though. It would be a good story if there weren’t decades of evidence of his suckalige. If it weren’t for Obama’s popularity and Trump’s ineptitude, no one would give Biden the time of day. He appeals to virtually no one, which is why he has to buy votes and “no true Scotsman” black people.
Congratulations, in my 20 odd years of going on various internet forms and pages, this is probably the stupidest take I have ever seen. God damn your teachers must have been dumbfounded by your ability to be so obtuse.
How will I ever sleep at night knowing I’ve offended your sensibilities so? I noticed you didn’t bother helping me shed the scales from my eyes. So help me out, when am I supposed to vote selfishly and when am I supposed to vote socially, I’m confused. Judging by the down votes, I think I’ve been doing it wrong most of my voting career. Hate the take, but tell me how their words don’t mean their support was purchased by government largess. The things you hate about Republicans you should be equally disappointed in Democrats for doing. That being said, I’ve no problem with the administration’s facilitating relief borrowers qualified for under the terms they agreed to (like PSLF, total disability and 20 year repayment). Eating one party’s pork while decrying the other’s tainted just furthers the “both sides” fallacy.
TL:DR
Brilliant reply, truly thought provoking. Short enough for you?
That’s how it should work
Well shit, I could be the most popular politician ever then. I wonder why no one has thought to just buy off every voter? What guise would you like your funds funneled to you under? One by one I’ll win you all over.
You’re against tax payer dollars going towards tax payers? What would you rather happen?
Interest capped for all borrowers. Bond backed government loans with no for profit middleman. Support for dual enrollment, AP and other means of obtaining college credits in general subject matter. Loan debt dischargeable in bankruptcy for private loans. Income based, sliding scale tuition at public universities instead of bigger loans for those who come from lesser means. People forget many of these public universities that cost 30k a year were land grant colleges established for the education of the public in the public’s interest.
Edit; the whole income based tuition sentence I somehow cut out in the original.
A wishlist of economic policies doesn’t answer why you think it’s a bad thing that tax money goes towards the citizenry who were taxed.
We could just not borrow it into existence. It’s not like there is a surplus and we have to figure out how to give it back to the taxpayers. Just like we shouldn’t have saved the banks in 2008 (the institutions and their shareholders, not the depositors.). Just like we shouldn’t to fund genocide across the globe. Government spending should benefit the citizenship broadly, not pick winners and losers.
That’s how literally every politician works
So both sides then? If so, I’ve been mostly voting wrong. Ayn, they’re all coming around! Tell Keynes he was right and that we love him!
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Dangling the carrot of civil rights in front of minorities just so he can get reelected… it’s sad, but it is what it is.
Unfortunately, the choice we have is between the false flag of that dangling carrot and the open derision of someone calling us ‘vermin’ and thinks we need to be eradicated.
It’s almost like shit has to go through Congress to become a law.
If people VOTE it very well may happen. Biden has surprised a whole lot of people so far. Look at the student loan forgiveness - it is happening IN SPITE of the Republicans.
It’s not like the other guy is going to be better for their civil rights. I’d rather have the guy who doesn’t keep his promises over the guy who wants me shot in the street for existing.
Just hope Biden doesn’t mistake you for Corn Pop.
What?
You’re delusional if you think Biden isn’t racist. Or very susceptible to his gaslighting.
That’s nice, but what was the corn pop thing about?
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Dangling a carrot of civil rights vs. Dangling a carrot of internment camps. Which one gets the horse moving toward progress?
Neither. Progress has never been made by begging powerful people for it. And if you just think about it for a second, you can see that. Hearing “just wait 4 more years then you can vote with your conscience” every single election cycle has to be a clue.
The whole point of discussing your intent is to get people to vote for you so you can do the thing.
People want improvements to civil rights so Biden has to talk about furthering that agenda so they’ll vote for him to go do that. It would be kind of odd not to do that.
It’s what he said about abortion rights, too.
Pro-tip for more votes: Say “cease fire”
I see this as proof that we don’t really live in a democracy. Most people are anti-genocide but a politician asking for a ceasefire is a fringe position. Most people want a higher minimum wage, but it’s considered a fringe position in Washington. Most people want universal healthcare, but it’s considered a fringe position.
Biden clearly doesn’t give a shit about winning the next election.
The problem is we do a single vote winner takes all system with absurd hurdles to even make it onto the ballot. Because of this it’s pretty much guaranteed the most moderate choice with the weakest stances will win. Of course there is also the problem with the disproportionate Electoral College votes in each state allowing people to lose the popular vote and still become president, as well as the disproportionate number of representatives from each state and district sent to Congress.
I’d be all for a per-capita representation in congress and a ranked choice vote for President.
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The ceasefire is the genocidal position. There was a ceasefire and one side ended it.
Taking out Hamas is a good thing.
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Muslims and Arabs are maybe 1-2% of the voting population, and the already live in primarily blue districts. Everyone else will forget or doesn’t give enough of a shit to make it a top voting priority.
The alternative is Trump, in which case the US might nuke Gaza just for fun, and then turn the west bank into a Trump owned water park.
You win some and you lose some no matter what you say.
Obama and Biden chained the Green Party candidate to chair for simply wanting to debate with the other two parties
Biden made cannabis a campaign promise and he walked back right at the start of his presidency
Harris laughed about having consumed cannabis in college while discussing her cannabis arrests
if Trump vs Biden is all we got left we are truly fucked
Newsflash: you’re fucked
I know which one of the two is much closer to your priorities than the other…
Dude needs to promise to legalize weed at the federal level to make up for his past bullshit. That would probably get folks out to vote. Imma vote for the old geezer anyway because I don’t want to live though Trump being president again. If Trump gets office again, he’ll likely never leave.
Maybe he can pull an Obama and pardon a ton of people in the coming weeks.
Given his age, we should really be hearing what Harris wants to do with her presidency if he wins as well.
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Yes, I have seen the other guy.
Which is why I’m quite concerned that an octogenarian with an unpopular VP who floundered during the primary race and has barely been seen since may not be making it to election day 2024 and passing the torch prematurely at the 11th hour during the most important election cycle in US history.
Biden is acting like a teenager that thinks they are immortal and risking the entire country on that presumption.
We should really be having a primary to run the most capable Dem candidates against Trump. But short of that, they should at very least be adequately preparing for a possible Harris v Trump ticket and not keep pretending she doesn’t exist until she’s unexpectedly thrust into the spotlight again.
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I’m not talking about hosting a lunch, and you know it.
I’m talking about national media presence.
It’s not her fault, but she’s significantly less visible than past VPs in both online media coverage and her own party’s preferred TV news segments.
I’m saying that it would be wise to have the party prioritize changing that quickly given the odds around how things might play out over the next twelve months.
Especially given things like the recent NBC News poll where she had the lowest approval rating since the poll began in 1989, articles like this NY Mag piece, or this WP piece, etc.
This is a PR issue, and it really seems like the party/administration is just pretending it doesn’t exist and focusing 100% on Biden rather than investing into improving her national image when there’s a real chance she’s going to need to carry a victory against Trump home unless they replace her (which Biden won’t do).
This is what happens when your political role models are all authoritarians.
But blaming others for this is not really accurate. Trump was raised to be a POS from birth.
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Sure, but the problem is that presidential elections are determined by who inspires more of their supporters to actually show up.
No one is inspired by “not literally the worst person to run for president”.
While I agree with your “Have you seen the other guy?”, I can also disagree with Harris.
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Same could be said of Trump and his candidate for vice president.
Yes, but I’m not particularly worried if Trump has a stroke in summer of 2024 and his VP pick needs to finish the race.
I’m extremely worried about that scenario for Biden/Harris.
I’m equally worried about Trump.
You’re worried that Trump will be out of the race? Why?
Not worried that he’ll be out of the race. One can be only hope. I just don’t believe Trump’s health is any better than Biden’s.
I agree that the health is comparable. But I’m only worried about Biden’s relative to the future of the country.
At least this saves them from having to print new campaign materials.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Kevin Munoz, a spokesman, described the election as “a choice between fighting for the middle class or shilling for rich special interests” and he said ”it’s a contrast we are more than happy to make.”
It was pared down because of resistance from Sen. Joe Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat who is a key vote in the narrowly divided Senate and announced this past week that he will not seek reelection.
That includes making two years of community college tuition free, offering universal preschool and limiting the cost of child care to 7% of income for most families.
George Floyd, a Black man in Minneapolis, was murdered by a white police officer, and Trump tried to overturn Biden’s election victory, leading to the riot on Jan. 6, 2021, at the U.S. Capitol.
But Democratic legislation intended to solidify access to the ballot box failed to advance when some members of the party refused to sidestep Senate filibuster rules to pass it.
The White House argues that it’s too hard to build infrastructure such as transmission lines, but legislation to address the issue would likely require compromises with Republicans, who see an opportunity to grease the skids for additional fossil fuel development.
The original article contains 1,481 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 86%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
“Centrists in the two major U.S. political parties are often found in the New Democrat Coalition, the Blue Dog Coalition of the Democratic Party, the Republican Main Street Partnership of the Republican Party, and the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus. Barack Obama has been widely identified as a centrist Democrat president, as has Joe Biden. Outside the two major parties, some centrists inhabit the Libertarian Party, independent candidacy movements, such as Unite America, co-founded by Charles Wheelan, and the Forward Party, established by Andrew Yang in 2021.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism
Biden
27% promises kept
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/biden-promise-tracker/?ruling=true
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/joe-biden/
Trump
How about do it anyway, you fucking template cookie cutter politician.
Congress is in the way on most of it.
The absolute ignorance of how the US government works on this site continues to astound me day in and day out. Though I’m pretty it’s mostly children and people wanting to virtue signal at this point.
Senate parliamentarian said no, so there’s nothing we could do.
The republicans will yell at us if we do something to help normal people, so we can’t.
Joe Manchin isn’t really a democrat so we had to give republicans everything they wanted and then some, sorry!
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How about unfucking the economy? Can we do that?
If there was a panacea for it? Sure.
Unfortunately actually unfucking it is politically impossible without a unified and directioned house and senate.
And impossible with short sighted voters.
It takes time, decades, of diligent and thoughtful change to achieve. Voters can barely maintain the same ideas and expectations for 6 months.
Essentially it’s a problem of America’s making and America has no interest in actually solving it, just complaining about it and pointing fingers.
Yeah. I get that. But that’s what’s going to sink him on election night. He needs to at least be promising something.
What a beautiful illustration to the statement you responded to.
Politics is performative. I’m tired of having to eat shit because some geriatric is pretending it’s 1999. The conservatives understand this and it’s why they get elected with track records of making us eat shit.
It really needs to be contextualized that, compared to essentially all other countries, the economic recovery the United States has experienced is far far better. That doesn’t mean that people’s pain right now isn’t real, but a lot of these issues are global in scale, and leaders across the entire planet have been having much harder times. There isn’t a “economy gooder” button on Biden’s desk that he can press.
But there is an “I’m working on it” button on the press briefing room podium.
He just isn’t hitting it. He’s going with ‘Bidenomics’ because Stonk Number go up.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/14/white-house-bidenomics-polling-00126982
The thing they aren’t getting is that people are in financial pain. It doesn’t matter that the dive was arrested, they’re still in a pile of shit. He’s celebrating like he fixed it when all he did was avert a catastrophe in the next year. If his messaging acknowledged people’s pain and said he wanted to get the economy good for people without stock based trust funds then more than a third of the country might respond positively to him.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice…
You’re talking about Trump, right?
Well, yes, him too.
Oh, you mean he’ll do all the stuff he promised to do during this term but jee shucks forgot to do?
Kinda tough when the controlling party of half of Congress sticks their fingers in their ears whenever a Democrat talks.
Would you prefer he used his EE magic wand to complete his agenda? You could say a lot of things about him but being able to work across the aisle is a one of his strong suits no matter who you ask, and tbh it’s kind of impressive he’s accomplished as much as he has given the climate in DC.
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If you’ve paid attention at all to what he’s done domestically over the past 3 years, you’d know it’s not at all a farce. I’ll vote for Biden any day, but especially when his opposition is a Republican.
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No, I guarantee you Trump would be saying much, much worse. Trump broke with prior Republican orthodoxy over Israel - to become more fervently pro-Israel.
They’re both bad on the Israel-Palestinian conflict. They’re not even fucking close to equally bad. And few other people in their parties would be better.
We’re essentially talking about the Trolley Problem here. Vote for Biden, support genocide. Don’t vote, worse genocide happens due to your inaction.
Are you willing to stake the country’s future on enough people being prepared to pull the lever and divert the trolley? Because that’s what Democrats are currently doing.
It’s risky as hell and the stakes are monstrous and we’re being put in this situation by politicians who want us to treat them like they’re not acting like Snidely Whiplash.
Here’s a reason why he was so pro-Israel, or at least pro-Netanyahu: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/trump-israel-collusion/
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Oh, you’re ready to watch it all burn down? That’s just swell. You’re not just going to sit on your ass and wait for someone else to burn it down, right? Because that would just be letting the worse candidate win so you can keep your hands ‘clean’ because you’re in a position comfortable enough to sit on your hands and play the part of the moralist as others suffer, so long as you don’t examine your own inaction too closely.
Right?
If all you do is vote once every other year, what right do you have to say that person should do more to support their ideas than you do for yours? People who say what you say also say stuff like “I dont like biden but . . .” And no one asks them to prove they tried to field a better candidate than Biden to prove it.
If you’re voting for someone you consider the ‘less evil’ option but then do nothing to fix the evil you voted for, you’re exactly the same as the person you criticized.
what right do you have to say that person should do more to support their ideas than you do for yours
I’m not advocating a fucking civil war.
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Clearly comfortable enough to embrace it getting worse. Some of us will quite literally die without government-subsidized healthcare, or food assistance, or social security, all things on the GOP chopping block. You want to watch my grandparents die they’re kicked out on the streets and unable to pay rent or food? Want to watch me vomit blood until I exsanguinate because the medication the government subsidizes is hundreds of dollars more a month than I make, period, much less can afford? You have fun with that. I sure as shit won’t.
I hope you’re white, Christian, heterosexual and male. Otherwise Trump is going to make your life a living hell.
But hey, at least you can say you didn’t vote for Biden when you’re in the concentration camp.
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And you don’t care about anyone but yourself? I guess you’re not interested in climate change. You won’t live to see the results, so burn all the oil you want, right?
You’re not gonna do shit.
But by all means, light a torch and see where that gets you. I’m sure it’ll be really far.
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The different is that Trump and his baffoons talk big but don’t know how to actually do the things they say.
Biden knows how to effectively do the things he does, which from what I have seen is mostly making half assed “attempts” to do good things and letting them die at the first sign of opposition to create the illusion that he isn’t evil for his neo-progressive kool aid drinkers, but being really effective about keeping a genocide going.
“I’m more fascist than those fascists!”
But who would you vote for if it was him vs Trump (which it likely will be)? Republicans will vote for Trump as a cohesive unit. We don’t have the luxury of voting for who we want in the general if we want to keep enjoying democracy.
But who would you vote for if it was him vs Trump (which it likely will be)? Republicans will vote for Trump as a cohesive unit.
Sounds like Biden has work to do.
If the people in this post are any indication, he definitely does. Uniting the Left is like herding cats.
With the Right, all you gotta do is give them a minority to be angry at, and they’ll mash that R button until their fingers bleed.
Uniting the Left is like herding cats.
Maybe they should start using catnip instead of the spray bottle.
I guess we’ll just sit around and hope that if we just keep voting for garbage candidates, a good one will just come along. What a good system.
Just like in H. W. Bush v Dukakis, liberals will refuse to vote for someone who does not align with their ideals (and there isn’t a much bigger thing that liberals do not tolerate than genocide).
This will lead to a HORRIBLE period of time. The Republicans will do what the Republicans do, and it will be because the Democrats just cant help themselves and NEED to fuck it up.
Then, after America has gone through another hellish term or 3 of Republicans, the Democrats will finally feel forced to gasp represent their constituents again, they will produce an actual decent candidate, and we will have a repeat of the Clinton/Gore years.
This has all happened before. Not even that long ago. Nearly play by play.
Then, after America has gone through another hellish term or 3 of Republicans, the Democrats will finally feel forced to gasp represent their constituents again, they will produce an actual decent candidate, and we will have a repeat of the Clinton/Gore years.
When the fuck has this happened, again? Allowing the GOP to push the narrative right for over a decade doesn’t give you a fucking Newton’s law equal reaction towards the left. It just makes politics as a whole more right-leaning. This whole “Let’s lose so we can win!” bull is nothing but wishful thinking.
I literally just told you.
What, Clinton/Gore? You mean the administration responsible for pulling the Democratic party to the neoliberal right? That’s your fucking hoped-for reaction?
Jesus H. Christ.
SMH my head.
You’re mixing up which Clinton dragged the party to the right.
You’re mixing up which Clinton dragged the party to the right.
… am I? Which Clinton is the leftist, here? Please, tell me about how Bill wasn’t actually a neoliberal?
Or worse, tell me how Hillary is actually a leftist?
Clinton repealed Glass-Steagall. That is a huge reason for our financial situation right now. It was a big gift to Republicans and the rich. Clinton was a terrible president. He was better than Bush would have been and better than Dole, but I’m not going to go much farther than that. He was as right as you could get (at the time) for a Democrat.
Both Clintons dragged the party to the right, dude.
Your proposed scenario will never happen. Have you even read Project 2025’s goals? If they get their guy in office, there won’t be a “hellish term or three of Republicans,” followed by Democrats waking up, because by then, it will be too late, and your vote literally won’t matter anymore.
Okay chicken little.
Good luck with your genocide.
I won’t support it.
It must be nice, imagining that you have the privilege of a choice.
Spineless fanatics like you are why we are here.
Spineless fanatics
That’s a new one.
Meaning you haven’t read Project 2025’s goals. Telorand isn’t Chicken Little, they’re Cassandra.
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Y’all are enjoying this? I’m not.
No. But I enjoy this more than fascism, and likely all of those things you listed will get measurably worse under a second term of Trump armed with Project 2025.
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But hopefully a revolution will come of it
Hopefully? What a batshit insane notion. “Yeah, I hope my friends and family die in a civil war fighting fascists.” We don’t have to go to war, but if people act like they’re entitled to the “perfect” candidate earning their vote and are unwilling to make compromises, then Trump and the Heritage Foundation have already won.
So your entire hope is based on the idea that “This is currently fascism, and has been fascism for decades now, but if we let it get just a LITTLE bit worse, then The Revolution will totally rise up and overthrow this whole system!”?
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So that’s a ‘yes’ then?
Jesus Christ.
This reads like you realize you lost the argument but are trying to save face by acting manly
Kinda fucking funny that a guy who is whining about “genocide enabling” wants a bunch of innocent civilians slaughtered in some fucked up idea of a “revolution”
“I’m not enjoying this on an abstract level, therefore, let the worst candidate win and make everything even worse. Fuck these other, poor people who actually struggle to get by on what meager assistance they receive. They can get less, so long as I don’t have to make a choice.”
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It sounds like you’d rather things get much worse, because you think that will make things better. Is that what you think?
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You have hope that there’s civil violence coming? You’re fucked up dude
Oh? You mean like how fascism motivated change in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany?
Have fun in the fucking camps. I’ll probably off myself before that.
I hope not. You seem to understand what’s at stake, rather than believing beyond all sense and reason that there will be another democratic election post-Project 2025.
Don’t worry. I promised myself I wouldn’t off myself after my last attempt until I truly saw no way out. I’ll wait 'til the Gestapo are knocking at the doors. Til then, I’ll be doing what little I can to get milquetoast centrists elected, because as much as I’d like something better, I’m also under no illusion that making things worse will give some sort of ‘do-over’.
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“I’m willing to sacrifice as many of you as it will take to get my way!”
You think voting for Trump or not voting will help any of that? Think again. It will make it way worse.
You’re gonna catch a lot of shit from people who don’t like the idea that this is the political calculus of many people whose votes Democrats consider themselves entitled to receive, regardless of what positions Democrats hold and what policies they implement.
These people have never considered for a fraction of an instant that votes are something politicians earn, not demand, and are insulted by the vile blasphemy that “not Trump, I guess” isn’t some people’s exclusive criterion for evaluating a candidate.
This is a blatant straw man. You’re labelling me “these people” and saying I “never considered for a fraction of an instant that votes are something politicians earn,” etc., which is an utter falsehood. I’m entirely aware of Biden’s record, the legislation he has supported, the legislation he’s been able to get passed, and his foreign policy. No, I do not agree with him 100% of the time, but yes, I agree with him probably 80% of the time, and hell yes he’s earned my vote. If anything, he’s overperformed from my expectations when he took office.
Fuck your “holier than thou” attitude like you have access to some special information. You’re a fucking fool on the internet like the rest of us. Have some goddamn humility
This is a blatant straw man.
It’s an accurate prediction. He has caught a lot of shit.
You’re labelling me
If you don’t consider yourself entitled to dictate how others vote, then I’m not talking about you.
If you do, then I absolutely am talking about you in perfectly accurate terms. And considering that a hit dog will holler…
