Please don’t put any hate comments against the developers of lemmy or against the person who posted this.
I am also unhappy about what the main lemmy instance is doing.
What are your thoughts?
I’m sorry to see people somewhere on the Internet coming out against Lemmy. First of all, let me say that I sympathize with the China issue. I’m a Muslim and I have been concerned about the Uyghurs for a very long time. This is not some bandwagon that I am jumping on, and I have ties to the region as well. I moderate the Uyghur sub on Reddit, created #uyghur on matrix.org, and on lemmy.ml I have registered communities like c/uyghur and c/xinjiang. I did that mainly to promote the welfare of Uyghurs and guard against whitewashing of the situation in Xinjiang. Obviously I am pro-Uyghur, and I feel that the admins of lemmy.ml have been gracious enough to respect me as a user and a mod. I have also not seen them engage in censorship of opposing viewpoints on this issue, and we have at least once that I can remember disagreed on China’s Uyghur policy here on the site. This did not result in any problem.
Please don’t cancel Lemmy, because the software is amazing and the creators really are nice. I don’t have to agree with them on politics in China. As long as they’re not crazy about it, the situation is manageable. So far they’ve always been fair.
Even suppose that one day they implement a policy on lemmy.ml that says they won’t allow anyone to post pro-Uyghur things. So what? It’s their Lemmy instance, they can decide what’s on it. I can go start my own instance. I really don’t think lemmy.ml has any obligation to do what the community wants. They’ve already done enough by creating the software and making it FOSS.
Besides, you know how many people posted pro-Uyghur content on c/uyghur since I created it? None. So if you’re concerned about how the issue is being represented on this site, maybe you could come post something sometime, or argue in the comments.
Anyway, at present I’m not recommending any other Reddit alternative and probably won’t.
I believe it is a mistake selecting that particular instance for those communities.
The risk isn’t just that they shut it down, there’s a much worse thing that could happen: pinpoint elision (or even editing) of reporting on the genocide.
I would post in that comm but my main contribution would be to add a conspiracy theory about how China did engineer the virus but targeting the uighurs (and their own elderly) not Americans based on an entire crackpot web a la iasip including everything from blood types to reports of people who have survived the camps saying they were injected with unknown substances but I can read the room well enough to know where my tinfoil hat belongs.
This kind of drama happens on Mastodon all the time, and within a few days everyone forgets about it. Apparently thats just how the platform works, so no need to get worried.
I suspect it’s by design. It’s surprisingly hard to discover past conversations on Mastodon, and the single depth comment/reply system makes it a pain to actually follow a serious discussion between multiple people.
I’m 100% sure you’re right… I don’t know why but the twitter style seems like someone’s yelling into the void, trying to start arguments, while the tree format feels like you can have principled discussions and learn from each other.
deleted by creator
I am among those people who think stalin wasn’t a hero, mao a genocide, and modern russia and china are oligarchies and dictatorships.
Some community members might disagree with me, but so far it’s been in a respectful way.
There is a difference between people advocating for human rights abuses and people saying that some actor does in fact not engage in human rights abuses. The difference is stark and even there, if the actor would in fact in engage in human right abuses.
An open society must tolerate the later. I.e. we must tolerate that people dispute that human right abuses occur or occurred. This is because you cannot judge someone purely due to getting the facts wrong or not knowing them.
If we wouldn’t allow this, we would de-facto argue for a totalitarian state, since we wouldn’t allow people disputing facts (which can be proven or disproven). We would have to nominate some entity that judges what is fact and what isn’t, which is the opposite to gathering evidence and engaging in an open, society wide discussion.
To be clear: Allowing discussions around whether abuses occur is notably different to letting people get away with advocating for abuses. The latter is what needs strong responses. The former is what requires engagement.
I don’t see anything on lemmy or in the mastodon thread that shows that human rights abuses are advocated for. What I do see is that there are some fractions that show sympathies to China which you would otherwise only see for the USA. I think its useful to compare these sympathies because they seem to express themselves in similar ways.
With all that said, I think the opinion expressed in the mastodon thread is not particularly useful. It, in many ways, minimises real human rights abuses that occur world wide, day to day, in China, USA, and many other countries in East and West.
Let’s call out the abuses, let’s discuss and present the evidence for them, let’s not alienate people and create polarity that looks like us-vs-them.
Very well said. Also, if these people disagree with the rules on lemmy.ml, they could create their own instance, with their own rules. Thats the whole point of federation.
Us: “China isn’t committing the atrocities the West accuses them of and here’s evidence.”
Anti-China people: “OMG you actively advocate for China’s atrocities and want them to keep happening!”
We politely asked this fedi account to take this discussion here, but they obstinately refused. They’ve equated even any discussion questioning the Zenz / Byler / ASPI narrative as genocide denial.
Block 'em and move on I say. It’s clear there’s no reasoning with them and there isn’t much we can do to stop them from spewing propaganda at us. In fact, engaging them will probably only exacerbate things.
deleted by creator
There is a difference between people advocating for human rights abuses and people saying that some actor does in fact not engage in human rights abuses.
The main difference is, that one practice gaslighting as a means to justify such acts.
They will claim “it was just joking”, or explain how in fact the abuse is something good, hence they aren’t for human right violation because they are for something that they just defined as something good.I haven’t seen this. What I’ve seen is that people say that the abuses do not occur.
show instances of lemmy.ml users saying “I was joking” or “saying that abuse is a good thing” during a discussion about any alleged genocide, abuse or disater.
No one forces you to use lemmy.ml
Everyone should get a platform to spread their views/propaganda :)
Apart from Nazis.
No, even they should, in the process you isolate them.
Hmmm yes, you do isolate them. But when they are isolated they are also then just surrounded by other people who think the same way as them, and that still is a problem. i mean it’s good if they’re kept to niche platforms like xchan or Ruqqus or thedonald.win or whatever, as they have less of an layman audience to manipulate there too - compared with sites like Twitter or Reddit.
This has been tried before in different ways; infowars, parler, even giving them r/thedonald (as some believed it kept them off other reddits) … It has only led to fascists finding a platform to start working their poison and spread it outside.
In fact isolating only worked when moderators finally did something and deplatformed them, I.e. Banned these communities. After Alex Jones was taken off youtube, infowars died. Spencer was punched so much he stopped leaving the house (and so stopped propagandising). Milo was canceled everywhere he went (literally), but especially on Twitter, and last I heard he filed for bankruptcy.
The best way to isolate them is to fragment their communities so much that any organisation is impossible. And of course prevent them from creating such communities. If you let them have their spaces, they will find them, they will go on there (and they’re very good at using the edgy aspect to lure in new recruits), and then you end up with another terrorist attack. They will organise on there and that’s what you want to prevent.
You know you can apply that to any antifa member who wants disobey laws by resorting to violent means.
i’ll take “Whataboutism” for 500, Alex.
So, don’t use lemmy as a software because there are some disagreeable things on one of the instances? Who gives a shit? This is the whole point of the fediverse. Defederate. Go to another instance. Mod. Block. Do whatever because that’s what the fediverse alows.
The logical inconsistency of supporting the fediverse but not supporting a method of accessing the fediverse because of content on the fediverse is very severe.
The developers of lemmy are self-admidded tankies, what else to expect?
Tankies and the Left-Unity Scam https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-tankies-and-the-left-unity-scam
That “essay” reads like a terminally online rant lol, sorry. I was made aware of it some time ago and we had a good laugh about it, because it feels like it was written by an angsty pre-teen, but this is a full-grown adult chasing strawmen in his head and the best examples he can find to illustrate his arguments is online drama and shitposting. I did have a good laugh when he said Raddle was an illegalist space, because I had to look into it afterwards and even other anarchists find this ideology questionable (I still don’t really understand how clearly self-motivated gangsters were later found to be anarchists either, because I couldn’t find these original illegalists calling themselves anarchists).
Edit: i was actually thinking of https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-eradicate-left-unity, I got confused by the names being similar. Keeping this comment up because ziq is too funny not to share lol
huh, why the downvotes? Because I used the term tankies, but you prefer to be called Marxist-Leninist? When contemporary anti-authoritarians use the term tankie, they usually refer to contemporary Marxist-Leninist. Hope that explanation helps. So when I say you are Marxist-Leninst, I mean you are tankie.
We had that discussion here on Lemmy many times before. “Tankie” is just a slur by now, with no real meaning left other then the intended slur part of it. P.S.: I am not a Marxist-Leninist.
Would you prefer we refer to you as dronie or anarkiddie?
you’re aware that dev of lemmy use the term tankie as a self description too?
Same logic as saying that Black people use the n word colloquially and therefore it’s fine to use it as a slur.
wow, I was already wondering if you gonna refer to the collective experience/history of slavery, colonialism and what not all of black people, and argue that referring to some Marxist-Leninist as tankies to be the same logic. It is not! You did not experience this sort of repression, so stop claiming as if there’s some similarity between me calling you a tankie, and discriminating, triggering, devaluing…etc. black folks.
your thinking is so white I can even smell it.
So far, you’re the only one using tricks and emotional appeals here. Stop trolling.
Genuinely curious: Is Tankie a slur? I’ve seen more communists use it than noncommunists. Though that might simply reveal who I like to hang out with more.
Tankie is a pejorative term that originates with CPGB to denounce the use of tanks by the Soviet during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Recently it’s been picked up by Anarchists and liberals as a slur against people who support existing socialist states like China or Cuba. Communists tend to use it ironically nowadays because the term pretty much lost all meaning at this point.
I wouldn’t understand what dronie is so that term might not well serve the purpose if used to address me. If you address me as anarkiddie, it be enough for a tiny giggle, but then I’ll be remembered how that term is actually discrimination against children. It helps to reproduce adultism over and over again.
Dronie refers to the fact that anarchist positions are always aligned with US foreign policy. It’s exact same rationale as the tankie slur you love so much. Meanwhile, anarkiddie refers to the fact that full grown adults hold infantile views of the world.
Dronie refers to the fact that anarchist positions are always aligned with US foreign policy.
hmm, ok. This wouldn’t fit me. I’m opposing US foreign policy in most parts, not all I must admit. I’m for: Dismantle the US empire. It’s just a phrase, but I mean it like that.
You’re literally peddling US state propaganda in this thread.
I wish people would stop sharing that article which is written by someone with equality questionable ethics as those he likes to call “tankies”. And who btw is a developer of a “competing” Reddit alternative.
Completly agree. Also, this is a topic that needs years of research and diplomacy as it is inherently tainted by propaganda (from all sides). It is pointless (and petty) to act as if there is a way of telling right from wrong at this stage. People need to cool their jets befor crying and accusing others of malicious intent. Personally, I am as left as it gets and that is why I like lemmy/lemmygrad. It is just refreshing to see this in the current internet!
I must admit I don’t know the author to well, but usually when people claim this anti-authoritarian is as bad as this authoritarian in regards of ziq (the author), people refer to his anticiv position. Anticiv get usually misrepresented and miss understood. I can understand why, but that doesn’t make them as bad as the “tankie”.
If you need a read on anticiv theory, you might enjoy reading something from Abdullah Öcalan leader of the PKK, which has Marxist-Leninist tradition.
I recommend you to read some other articles by this author and maybe do a web-search on him admitting to faking multiple accounts as sockpuppets to push his agenda on raddle.me.
As for anticiv… some of them are misunderstood and misrepresented as you say, just as some Marxist-Leninist are misunderstood and misrepresented by calling them “tankies”. Hence my comment on “equally questionable”.
However some anticiv people are really just crypto eco-fascists, just as some marxist-leninists are really just crypto fascists with a leftist lore.
I haven’t fully made up my mind about which of the two categories this ziq falls into, but some of his other articles makes me suspect he is on the way to become the latter.
I recommend you to read some other articles by this author
I did already, not my favorite author but I haven’t read anything that is comparable bad with ML
do a web-search on him admitting to faking multiple accounts as sockpuppets
I am aware of that. The author admitted their wrong doing, and because of his behavior stepped down as moderator, at least temporarily. I don’t know about the current status. To those he caused the most harm by his behavior, they made piece with it and remain in friendship afaik. If you need the backround story to all that, I can dick it out for you.
However some anticiv people are really just crypto eco-fascists
some primies are like that. I did read threads how ziq makes fun of their nonsense.
Yes I think he does not realize himself that some of his expressed believes are dangerously close to eco-fascism.
In general I recommend you to take a step back and reconsider if your ideological leanings are not making you see some ML ideas as worse then they are. After all they have been the dominant leftist group for a long time and thus attracted some questionable people as well as very detailed anti-authoritarian criticism.
Anticiv ideas on the other hand are not well explored in detail at all and most leftist thinkers opposed to the ideas did not spend considerable effort into criticizing them, hence it is easy to live in a positive anticiv bubble pretending that there are no inherently very problematic ideas contained in it.
After all they have been the dominant leftist group for a long time and thus attracted some questionable people as well…
You mean like Lenin? It’s not “some”, it’s the majority, and it’s their leaders.
Yes for example Lenin (who was basically a counter-revolutionary as explained in Emma Goldman’s book on the topic). But today’s Marxist-Leninists are not all hardcore Lenin fanboys; it is a diverse group of people with different ideas and some misconceptions due to a long history of Soviet Union propaganda.
Since you’re clearly ideologically opposed to Marxist-Leninist views, why are you here?
I can be ideologically opposed to anything, and still take the courage to engage with such individuals. I don’t want to live in cult, with anyone part of that just going to agree with me. I let my ideas be confronted by those who oppose me. They will either stand or be dismantled. Both will have a positive outcome for me, and that is learning. Either I stand corrected afterwards, or I will have learned more about your habit, thought patterns and communities. This is intel activity, done by an random anarcho[…]
You clearly don’t have the courage to engage with individuals in good faith or have any interest in educating yourself on the subjects that you choose to engage on. You also quite clearly not interested in learning, as you simply dismiss information that doesn’t fit with your preconceptions. All you do is throw around slurs and make personal attacks. What you’re doing is generally known as trolling.
lemmy.ml is also for anarchists, right?
Yes. @yogthos@lemmy.ml does not speak for the majority here.
I don’t care about what people’s views are as long as they’re respectful to views of others, and are willing to have discussions in good faith. My issue with @nikifa@lemmy.ml is that they make personal attacks, use slurs, and make bad faith arguments.
Sure, I’m just wondering why the particular person is here since they seem to be ideologically opposed to the fact that Lemmy devs are MLs. All I see from them is personal attacks and bad faith arguments.
Seems like a pretty standard free-speech/safe space issue. Move to a different instance and ban the communities that discuss things you don’t like? That’s kind of the main benefit of a platform like this.
They have problems with the word filter? The word filter keeps the bigoted reactionaries away, did they not notice that? If they would rather talk to bigots than to us, then they shouldn’t join us.
haters… Everywhere
deleted by creator
I’ve been struggling the whole day about how to respond to this.
My first reaction was disgust, as the thing going on with Uyghurs in China pretty much looks like a genocide, regardless of semantics. “If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck”.
When it comes to discussion about the subject, I however have to agree with @jazzfes@lemmy.ml.
To be clear: Allowing discussions around whether abuses occur is notably different to letting people get away with advocating for abuses. The latter is what needs strong responses. The former is what requires engagement.
No promotion of oppression or bigotry has in this case happened. I’d rather allow people have these discussions as long as they can behave like in a furnished space.
I’m fine with the developers’ political views, as the Lemmy software is more important.
Of course Lemmy has now a certain kind of PR problem as this FediTips fella is making big accusations and wanting people to stop using Lemmy altogether.
Let’s not fool ourselves, denying Uyghur abuse puts you in the same territory as holocaust deniers.
Then the United Nations are holocaust deniers. Fact is that no international court or UN organ has even investigated the alleged genocide. Innocent until proven guilty.
When has the UN denied holocaust?
The UN hasnt declared that a genocide is happening in Xinjiang. By your logic, that makes them equal to Holocaust deniers.
So they haven’t actually denied it?
deleted by creator
Lemmy always had a PR “problem”, but so far it has probably been a net positive as it kept away some very annoying people and Lemmy the software isn’t quite ready for mainstream adoption anyways (mainly due to lacking moderation options and integration with the “normal” Fediverse).
But it’s not that easy. Having a “discussion around whether abuses occur” implies allowing being apologetic towards those acts which might be abusive.
I’m sure fascists don’t think of fascism as abusive, even if it is. Would you allow discussing that?
At some point you need to set a clear dogmatic/axiomatic definition of what’s not allowed (with examples from different geopolitical positions) and don’t allow anyone to put that in doubt, abiding by that definition should be part of the rules.
Of course this makes it much harder to discuss things openly, but that’s the price to pay if you want to have a rule that claims zero tolerance.
Good points!
Highly recommend reading this recent report from Italy regarding Xinjiang.
It’s ironic that the “OMG CHINA IS GENOCIDING” crowd accuses us of lying and ignoring evidence when we tend to be the only ones providing sources for our claims. It’s evident in this very thread.
It’s not a good look for admins to get involved in politics this directly, makes the whole place look like a hugbox
deleted by creator
why not use something else if they have an issue with lemmy?
If someone doesn’t want to use this software because they disagree with the developers’ politics, it’s their loss. I wish them luck in finding ideologically pure projects in the future.
as far as i know, yes lemmygrad and lemmy.ml are operated by the same people. And i think this was a deliberate decision to create a seperate instance: the admins knew that such discussions would arise and they knew people would block/criticize tankie-content. So having a generalist instance like lemmy.ml makes it easier for people to like lemmy.
i don’t trust the developers or tankies in general.
Me personally, I’ve realized how much my perception of socialist countries has been warped by capitalist propaganda and I’m reluctant about believing anything that western media says about these countries.
I was in the same boat before I joined Lemmy and talked to actual socialists and communists. I was staunchly anticommunist and anti-China without even knowing all the facts.
There are lot of lies about communism but not every thing that comes anti-communist along is actually anti-communist.
It is most often directed at the authoritarian and totalitarian communists and gives a really bad image to any other communist, because unfortunate it often lumps it all together.
