(CW: chapters 4 and 5 contain explicit discussions of sexual assault)

Hello comrades, it’s time for our second discussion thread for The Will to Change, covering Chapters 4 (Stopping Male Violence) and 5 (Male Sexual Being). Thanks to everyone who participated last week, I’m looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts again. And if you’re just joining the book club this week, welcome!

I’ll be sharing my full thoughts later as there’s quite a lot of unpack in these chapters.

In Ch.4 hooks delves into how patriarchal repression of men’s emotional worlds most often manifests as violence and rage, especially against women and children, and how patriarchy conditions both young boys and young girls to perpetuate the cycle. Ch.5 explores how patriarchal attitudes extend to the bedroom and twist our popular conceptions of sexuality, sexual fulfillment, and physical and emotional satisfaction.

If you haven’t read the book yet but would like to, its available free on the Internet Archive in text form, as well as an audiobook on Youtube with content warnings at the start of each chapter, courtesy of the Anarchist Audio Library, and as an audiobook on our very own TankieTube! (note: the YT version is missing the Preface but the Tankietube version has it)

As always let me know if you’d like to be added to the ping list!

Our next discussion will be on Chapters 6 (Work: What’s Love Got To Do With It?) and 7 (Feminist Manhood), beginning on 12/18.

  • Crowtee_Robot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    7 hours ago

    Chapter 5 stuck with me a lot because I’ve been trying to interrogate sexuality as much as possible, both for myself as well as in a more general sense. As a cishet guy who has been the target demographic of patriarchal continuation for my entire life I’ve found myself thinking:

    Is this desire my own?

    Do I want to do this or is this just what I’m supposed to do?

    What harm may be done to myself or someone else?

    hooks writes about the entitlement towards sex that is encouraged in men. It wasn’t until I was in my thirties that I understood that sexual arousal was like any other emotion and didn’t demand action every time it occurred. A few years on an SSRI that killed my libido was a big factor in hitting the pause button as well and gave me some room to realize that sex didn’t have to claim such a large part of my waking hours. One of the reasons I stopped taking it was I was feeling sexually unfulfilled having no libido, and since then the balance feels much healthier and not alienating for either me or my partner who has undergone her own changes and journey over the years. It was having time to stop and think and having someone to speak with openly and honestly about my feelings that helped facilitate that growth. I know I likely wouldn’t have reached these conclusions on my own.

    It’s so easy as a man to get caught up in the current of sex that permeates everything, especially during this period of extreme isolation and alienation. It’s literally everywhere, provides a quick easy high to keep the darkness at bay, and requires practice to recognize it and then reject it. A problem I’ve encountered is people can be so protective of their sexuality that suggesting that they take some time to truly understand it is akin to asking them to dissect and ruin one of their favorite things. It’s this thing where we’re taught that our sexuality is our own and no one else’s, so who am I to suggest there might be something unhealthy about it?

    I’m stuck with the thought that sexual desire and practice are so much more complex than many people want to accept and that we’re stuck in a state of arrested development that will need something akin to a Cultural Revolution to uproot the gnarly mess we’ve made for ourselves. I think about how things might have been different if the Nazis hadn’t destroyed the German Institute for Sexual Sciences. I think about the horrible repression every time there’s been a Great Awakening in the US where patriarchy reasserts itself as violently as possible. There’s millennia worth of thoughts like this to fall into, but that only reminds me of the importance of putting in the work now to change it.

  • Barabas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    11 hours ago

    I think these two chapters do a decent job of voicing why I am uncomfortable being cishet in a way. Seeing patriarchal relationships all around I got some gender essentialism stuck in my brain. I just couldn’t understand why women would ever want to be in a relationship with men, it got as far as me trying to date men instead to spare women (sorry lads, didn’t work out). I was inherently bad and attraction to women was a violent dirty impulse. Like woke catholic guilt I guess. But these are my very personal brainworms, so lets look at some other stuff.

    In How Can I Get Through to You? Terrence Real includes a chapter titled “A Conspiracy of Silence,” in which he emphasizes that we are not allowed in this culture to speak the truth about what relationships with men are really like. This silence represents our collective cultural collusion with patriarchy. To be true to patriarchy we are all taught that we must keep men’s secrets. Real points out that the fundamental secret we share is that we will remain silent: “When girls are inducted into womanhood, what is it exactly that they have to say that must be silenced. What is the truth women carry that cannot be spoken. The answer is simple and chilling. Girls, women—and also young boys—all share this in common. None may speak the truth about men.”

    This is something that hits after my grandmother died. She was survived by her 3 children, two women and a man. My uncle was adamant that she would have wanted to be buried with her mother and her mother’s husband, but both my mother and aunt vetoed that in no uncertain terms. My grandmother’s father had been abusive to her while she was growing up and that was apparently kept as a secret between only the women of the family. There was a slightly similar thing when I started venting about my father to my mother (who never said a bad word about him while he was still alive) and peeling back how the break up actually went. She took all the public blame and let him constantly bad mouth her to their common friends even though it was bs (leaving her with no friends, since all their friends were in common). She argued that he needed the support more than her. She then confirmed a couple of my suspicions about how he never really cared about me or my brother, but how he kept partial custody mostly as a means of controlling her. She said she wanted us (me and my brother) to give him a fair shake, which I guess we did and both ended up disliking him. Ironically he thought that we were somehow indoctrinated against him by my mother on his deathbed.

    In conversations with men whose mothers were passive as their sons were victimized by fathers or other male parental caregivers, I found that the men were far more likely than other men to idealize their moms, seeing them as victims without choice.

    This got me thinking about how my mom and her partner, they got together when I was 7-8. Now, he was never really presented as or has attempted to take the role as male role model or father figure, but there is still some ways in which his behaviour, and mums behaviour in turn, conditioned me. While he has never been physically violent, he starts yelling and gets angry at the drop of a hat. The slightest provocation would set him off, which left emotional regulation of this adult ass man as my responsibility as a child. Just to have peace and quiet if nothing else.

    She would bite back if he ever started yelling at me or my brother directly, but it was still a constant source of stress to live in the same house as him. I don’t think he is an inherently bad person, and she does say she loves him. I’ve questioned her a couple of times about it, as far as I know he has never been physically abusive at least. But it is hard to be sure given her track record of ignoring her own needs.

    Now that patriarchal straight men have been compelled through mass media to face the fact that homosexual males are not “chicks with dicks,” that they can and do embody patriarchal masculinity, straight male sexual dominance of biological females has intensified, for it is really the only factor that distinguishes straight from gay. Concurrently, homophobia becomes amplified among heterosexual men because its overt expression is useful as a way to identify, among apparently similar macho men, who is gay and who is straight.

    This section however, I don’t understand at all.

    • dumples
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      7 hours ago

      This section however, I don’t understand at all

      I agree with this. There are parts of chapter 5 that I don’t really agree on as much or am confused about.

      I do think that homophobia among patriarchal men is super common because it’s thought of as feminization and being taken as a woman. (This all of course assumes all gay are into receiving anal which we know isn’t true). I do see an envy in this men with their obsession about how often, when and how gay men have sex. This seems like an envy about the amount and ease at which gay men can have sex or envy that they aren’t doing it.

  • dumples
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    12 hours ago

    I feel like chapter 5 (Male Sexual Beings) did not ring as true as some of the others. There were some parts that I thought were spot on but overall I found it kind of sex and pornography negative. I feel like this might be because when the book was written (2004) there was as much kink, queer, women centric and feminist pornography as there are now. I think there have been lots of progress in this area over the last 20 years but this isn’t mainstream, especially for most cis, white straight men. The kink and / or queer sexuality (they are so blurred now) is a lot more egalitarian and feminist and includes an acceptance of domination in sexuality. bell hooks doesn’t talk about how this can be done safely and healthily but consenting adults for a short period during a pre-negotiated scene. The need to dominate and be dominated can be done safely sexually if people agree to it. The desires aren’t bad or evil but can be used to do actions that are.

    I do find her last passage enlightening:

    Sex was, and is, presented as the road to real intimacy, complete closeness, as the arena in which it is okay to openly love, to be tender and vulnerable and yet remain safe, to not feel so deeply alone. Sex is the one place sensuality seems to be permissible, where we can be gentle with our own bodies and allow ourselves our overflowing passion.

    This is true and I think is important to note about male sexuality. The current emphasis is not on pleasure, gentleness or closeness but rather on act of getting sex. Gentleness and sensuality is not acceptable for male sex and I think male desires are limited in the patriarchy. There are sets of bodies that we are suppose to find attractive and sex acts that are acceptable for Men.

    I wish there was more talk about how male sexuality is so phallic-centric with PIV for procreation as the only “real” sex. The emphasis on ejaculation as the best and only part that is enjoyable is very prominent and hides the fact that sex can be so much more and longer than just that 1 second. The rest of the male body is ignored even though it can be a source of pleasure the same as a woman’s body. It has taken me years to be gentle with the rest of myself and to understand what I actually like

    The dive into sexuality as well was illuminating, from the depictions of lust out of a desire for love and the almost “taboo” nature of discussing love helps me contextualize my own desires. I’m curious to see if Hooks dives further into incels as well. The depictions of sexual assault were deeply uncomfortable, as well.

  • dumples
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    13 hours ago

    I am going to talk about these two chapters separately because they are so different from each other. (Although as chapter 4 shows sex and violence go together). I think the real heart of this chapter comes from two different passage. The first is about self mutilation of their own emotions (Emphasis mine):

    The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.

    I find this passage rings very true from my own experience. I have never been violent in my adulthood but the killing of the emotional sense was definitely part of my life. I have found recently that I don’t think I know what emotions feel like and never really knew that emotions were felt in the self. I thought they were just something people applied to situations. Like this is suppose to be sad so I feel sad. I am not surprised about this because I spent a large part of my teenage years reading pulpy Tom Clancy / war novels. It makes sense with the constant bombardment of the glory of war in my teenage head.

    The second part that is the rising of violence due to the failure of the patriarchy to fulfilling its end of the bargain which ends in rage and violence. (Emphasis mine):

    Male violence in general has intensified not because feminist gains offer women greater freedom but rather because men who endorse patriarchy discovered along the way that the patriarchal promise of power and dominion is not easy to fulfill, and in those rare cases where it is fulfilled, men find themselves emotionally bereft. The patriarchal manhood that was supposed to satisfy does not. And by the time this awareness emerges, most patriarchal men are isolated and alienated; they cannot go back and reclaim a past happiness or joy, nor can they go forward. To go forward they would need to repudiate the patriarchal thinking that their identity has been based on. Rage is the easy way back to a realm of feeling. It can serve as the perfect cover, masking feelings of fear and failure.>

    This passage feels more true every year especially this week with the emotional reactions towards the killing of United HealthCare CEO. The general sentiment is that the current system is failing and people are angry. From the incels who believe their own hyper-patriarchy so much so that they think they deserve sex. The everyday men who are working their corporate job and falling behind the goal to provide financial stability. We were promised success in the traditional channels if we killed our own emotions and support this system but that doesn’t work. We know that the only people who are benefitting are the top of the hierarchy (the billionaire class). Those of us who see it know the real enemy isn’t women but those who are benefiting from our rage against them.

    • Barabas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      10 hours ago

      I have never been violent in my adulthood but the killing of the emotional sense was definitely part of my life. I have found recently that I don’t think I know what emotions feel like and never really knew that emotions were felt in the self. I thought they were just something people applied to situations. Like this is suppose to be sad so I feel sad.

      It is strange to be performing an emotion. When I get into crisis and high stress it entirely shuts down and I start performing what I’m supposed to do like an automaton. Feels very surreal, especially when you see people grieving around you and feel like a fraud and a monster for not really feeling.

      It makes me useful in emergencies as I tend to be solution focused, but I don’t think it is enough to make up for it.

      • dumples
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        10 hours ago

        When I panic or stress I definitely get robotic and solution focused. It works really well for getting things done but not in a healthy way. I had some very sad things happen recently and felt the same way you do. I felt like I should be sad but I wasn’t feeling anything. In times like that I tend to only feel it once I am by myself or sometimes never. I often feel like a robot especially after lots of stress. I just shut down inside

    • AcidSmiley [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      12 hours ago

      I have never been violent in my adulthood but the killing of the emotional sense was definitely part of my life. I have found recently that I don’t think I know what emotions feel like and never really knew that emotions were felt in the self. I thought they were just something people applied to situations. Like this is suppose to be sad so I feel sad.

      A good friend of mine struggles a lot with alexithymia (being unable to understand and identify one’s emotions) due to trauma and autism, she’s been working with various emotion wheels as a ressource and it has been surprisingly efficient. You can easily find various versions of this when you just google “emotions wheel” or “feelings wheel”, and when you regularly apply that, you slowly train yourself to connect to your emotions again.

      • dumples
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        12 hours ago

        My therapist recommended that to me as well. I have been using How We Feel which is an app that asks you multiple times a day to check in with your emotion. It was created as part of a book I read called Permission to Feel which I also recommend. The app is easier to use. But the whole thesis is that people can’t label emotions and this is suppose to help with that. I have felt that it has helped over the last few months as I use it daily.

        I also was recommended The Atlas of the Heart which shows related emotion together as well as being a beautiful book. Its helpful to talk about the difference from guilt and shame or stressed vs overwhelmed because they are related. I recommend it as well.

        I am using the tools and getting better at everything but I feel like I should have known this when I was much younger. I am in my 30’s and I feel like I am a 5 year old when it comes to identify emotions. I am only good at positive emotions and I use it to cover up or hide anything negative. But I am getting better at a good pace

    • RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      13 hours ago

      Oh, no, I’m behind on my homework! This is just like high school all over again! But I did get a cool E-Reader today and intend to load this among a bunch of other books to it. Very exciting.

  • MiraculousMM [he/him, any]@hexbear.netOPM
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    In chapter 4 hooks brings up another example of how masc views on violence are directly shaped by patriarchy, similar to the story about the survey earlier in the book:

    When researchers looking at date [SA] interviewed a range of college men and found that many of them saw nothing wrong with forcing a woman sexually, they were astounded. Their findings seemed to challenge the previously accepted notion that [SA] was aberrant male behavior. While it may be unlikely that any of the men in this study were or became [sexual assaulters], it was evident that given what they conceived as the appropriate circumstance, they could see themselves being sexually violent. Unconsciously they engage in patriarchal thinking, which condones [SA] even though they may never enact it.

    This is a patriarchal truism that most people in our society want to deny. Whenever women thinkers, especially advocates of feminism, speak about the widespread problem of male violence, folks are eager to stand up and make the point that most men are not violent. They refuse to acknowledge that masses of boys and men have been programmed from birth on to believe that at some point they must be violent, whether psychologically or physically, to prove that they are men.

    Very interesting to read in the wake of MeToo and #NotAllMen, even 20 years ago hooks was calling out the self-centered dorks who refuse to listen to women who’ve been saying with their whole chests how bad sexual violence is. This is another of those passages that I wish all mascs would read to understand that even if you have relatively good intentions, even if you are not an SA’er or a violent misogynist, you are not immune to patriarchal brainworms, especially if you haven’t made the effort to purge them.

    Her description of how patriarchal mothers shape their sons’ worldviews is particularly fascinating to me:

    Many teenage boys have violent contempt and rage for a patriarchal mom because they understand that in the world outside the home, sexism renders her powerless; he is pissed that she has power over him at home. He does not see her autocratic rule in the home as legitimate power. As a consequence, he may be enraged at his mom for using the tactics of psychological terrorism to whip him into shape and yet respond with admiration toward the male peer or authority figure who deploys similar tactics. In patriarchal culture boys learn early that the authority of the mother is limited, that her power comes solely from being a caretaker of patriarchy. When she colludes with adult male abuse of her son, she (or later a symbolic mother substitute) will be the target of his violence.

    Reading this made something click in my head. Women married to patriarchal men and even single mothers who haven’t excised their patriarchal brainworms play a key role in perpetuating the culture, a point which hooks has made many times already but seeing a clear example laid out like this just makes it all make so much more sense. The anecdote about young boys watching Incredible Hulk and saying they’d “smash their mommies” is pretty horrifying and illustrates the point so distinctly. And she makes it clear that it’s the responsibility of both men and women to work towards ending this cycle of “normal traumatization”.

    In How Can I Get Through to You? Terrence Real includes a chapter titled “A Conspiracy of Silence,” in which he emphasizes that we are not allowed in this culture to speak the truth about what relationships with men are really like. This silence represents our collective cultural collusion with patriarchy. To be true to patriarchy we are all taught that we must keep men’s secrets. Real points out that the fundamental secret we share is that we will remain silent: “When girls are inducted into womanhood, what is it exactly that they have to say that must be silenced. What is the truth women carry that cannot be spoken. The answer is simple and chilling. Girls, women—and also young boys—all share this in common. None may speak the truth about men.”

    bell hooks says gossip saves lives and she’s entirely correct feminism

    In self-help books galore the notion that women choose men who will treat them badly again and again is presented as truth. These books rarely talk about patriarchy or male domination. They rarely acknowledge that relationships are not static, that people change through time, that they adjust to circumstances. Men who may have seeds of negativity and domination within them along with positive traits may find the negative burgeoning at times of crisis in their lives.

    This genuinely scares me as someone who is currently single but someday desires a loving long term relationship. The people in my life describe me as a kind, gentle and loving person, but what if all the negative emotions and pain I haven’t been socially allowed to process become too much to handle and I lash out? I want to say I don’t think I would ever become a patriarchal rage monster but the fact that it’s even possible is terrifying. When men bow at the altar of their patriarchal conditioning they’re not just hurting themselves emotionally but they’re putting everyone else around them (especially femmes) at risk, even if they have “good intentions”, whatever that means.

    I connect so much with hooks’ description of how even if a man is able to fully embody the patriarchal dominator role, it’s not a satisfying existence, it’s actually soul-crushing and lonely as fuck. When I was a kid and I was trying (and failing hard) to be more macho and “dominating”, I figured out very quickly that it only made me miserable, compounded by the fact that I was a nerdy little sensitive boy who just couldn’t make that facade work. I’m extremely thankful I saw through the bullshit early on in my life because I can’t imagine putting on a front like that every single day of my life just to score social points from shitheads.

    I’ll share my thoughts on chapter 5 later as I found that to be quite a heavy read that I want to process more first.

    • Crowtee_Robot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      7 hours ago

      The quote about boys who watched The Incredible Hulk wanting to, “smash their mommies” will probably live in my head forever because of how shocking it was to hear yet also making perfect sense.

    • dumples
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      Men who may have seeds of negativity and domination within them along with positive traits may find the negative burgeoning at times of crisis in their lives.

      I had a very difficult 2024 and I feel this statement. I did some major reverting to stoicism and hiding things due to times of stress. I said I did it because I wanted to protect my partner but it was just retreating to pre-learned behaviors. I have noticed it in hindsight and need to keep an eye on it in the future

      This genuinely scares me as someone who is currently single but someday desires a loving long term relationship. The people in my life describe me as a kind, gentle and loving person, but what if all the negative emotions and pain I haven’t been socially allowed to process become too much to handle and I lash out? I want to say I don’t think I would ever become a patriarchal rage monster but the fact that it’s even possible is terrifying.

      This fear is a good things to have. Bad people don’t believe that they are bad people and aren’t afraid of their behavior. They do something bad and then justify it after the fact. Or downplay how bad it is by saying everyone else is doing it. We need to understand that all of us have a dark shadow and the capacity to do something bad. By understanding that we could potential do something bad we can choose to not do that. Find ways to release the negative emotions by acknowledging them and feeling them even if they hurt. This is much easier said than done. But thinking critically about your life, your behaviors and upbringing is part of that.

  • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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    14 hours ago

    Hooks is really very good at driving the same central points home through layered, alternative angles. What this results in is lots of connections and recurring themes reinforcing each other, I expect this to be even better upon a reread.

    As per this week, the further dive into rage as violent emotional outbursts maintaining patriarchy was a good way to delve into the heart of abuse, and where it stems from. Further, The encapsulation of abuse as a method to maintain patriarchy, the two-sided nature of fathers who abuse, the glorification of rage as a superpower to use against mothers, all of it is quite sad and really drives home the fact that proper parenting really needs to be in place, along with correcting societal conditions.

    The dive into sexuality as well was illuminating, from the depictions of lust out of a desire for love and the almost “taboo” nature of discussing love helps me contextualize my own desires. I’m curious to see if Hooks dives further into incels as well. The depictions of sexual assault were deeply uncomfortable, as well.

    Hope to hear everyone else’s thoughts!